-Removed-I cannot argue with you on this, if it is indeed the case. I don't know of many genuine Christians who totally agree on anything.
That is too bad because the scriptures command us to be like minded. I am not sure how to fulfill that command, but I probably don't have a full grasp on it either.
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-Removed-You're exaggerating.
I didn't say teachers like John Stott or Clark Pennock or you were turned away from being CHRISTIANS.
I said they turned away from a certain NT teaching.
And that is not all New Testament teaching, but a certain one.
And names of tags I sometimes am hesitant to remember all details of.
I don't consider it hard-line to take several NT passages at face value for what they certainly communicate. It is harder for me labor a reasoning that they do not say what they say.
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Originally posted by checkbaiterLike minded is possible. I experience it with other Christians with whom I may have differing opinions on passages of the Bible.
I cannot argue with you on this, if it is indeed the case. I don't know of many genuine Christians who totally agree on anything.
That is too bad because the scriptures command us to be like minded. I am not sure how to fulfill that command, but I probably don't have a full grasp on it either.
It does not mean that all doctrinal points are argeed upon exactly.
It means that all agree that we should experience Jesus Christ as living Person no matter what.
The Recovery Version translates the Philppians passage as "think the one thing".
The "one thing" that all believers are to think is to enjoy the Person of Jesus.
So I would suggest that two brothers or two sisters who have differning opinions on, IE. the details of salvation or perdition, can still think the one thing - "We must enjoy Christ today. We must experience Christ today. We must abide in this living Person Christ today."
-Removed-
How does propagating the belief that anyone who mistreats will be burned alive for all eternity possibly help you adhere to "clear exhortations from the new Testament?"
You're twisting my paragraph.
First the "propagating" about God's power and authority to reach FURTHER than human beings, is a "propagating" done by Jesus Christ.
Here Christ propagates His teaching in Luke 12:5.
New American Standard Bible
"But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
King James Bible
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
But I will show you the One to fear: Fear Him who has authority to throw people into hell after death. Yes, I say to you, this is the One to fear!
Dance around it as we may, the purpose of the teaching is an instruction on WHO it is that we should render FEAR to.
It is a teaching on JUSTIFIABLE fear. Sorry.
Why can their be forgiveness of those who sorely mistreat the believer?
One reason there can be forgiveness is because the Christian is more impressed with the fear of God.
Let's back up and see the few sentences preceeding -
"And I say to you My friends, Do not fear those who kill the body and afterwards have nothing more that they can do.
But I will show you whom you should fear: fear Him who, after killing, has authority to cast into Gehenna; yes, I tell you, fear this One."
This is the propagating teaching from the mouth of Jesus.
Along with this He teaches us to forgive those who mistreat us.
"You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may become sons of your Father who is in the heavens, because He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good and sends rain on the just and the unjust." (Matt. 5:43-45)
1.) We are to PRAY for the offenders because they are in need of salvation.
2.) We are to realize the impartiality of God. He is impartial in providing rain and sunshine. And He is impartial in righteous judgment.
This is a teaching to the disciples on their loving their enemies.
Forgiveness is certainly implied in this love.
And fear towards the impartiality of the absolutely righteous God.
This all requires the indwelling life of Another Person - Jesus dispensed into our being as the life giving Spirit - "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
Afterall, this One who became life giving Spirit saved some who nailed Him to the cross. He saved some who wiped Him with cords studded with shells and pieces of steal to cut the flesh down to the bone. He saved them because they turned to believe in Him.
We are taught to pray for those enemies in Luke 6:28:
New American Standard Bible
bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
King James Bible
Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
Now I am not saying that ONLY a belief in eternal punishment can induce this kind of forgiveness. I just say it so influences me this way.
In Romans 12:20 Paul similarly propagates a forgiveness which is aware of God's impartial and awesome judgment -
"But if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in doing this you will heap coals of fire upon his head."
I don't think Paul means passive aggressive behavior to hurry the offender on to a burning punishment. That is not pure in heart. Paul means to leave our vindication up to a sovereign God who is absolutely righteous. We too could have been under His judgment. Others simply must have the same chance to be saved.
God is sovereign. We should not avenge ourselves in any way as disciples of Jesus. We should leave the whole situation in the sovereign hand of the Lord, giving Him the ground to do whatever He likes.
I think what we have here is you admitting that your coping strategy for "being mistreated" (whatever that involves) is that you dial-up an imagery of your persecutor being broiled in a furnace for all eternity.
Then you would be wrong and imagining what you would like to imagine.
You strike me as being quite mean-spirited and actually somewhat vindictive in this aspect to be frank.
It is customary that those who take at face value the words of certain passages in the NT are accused of being "mean-spirited".
But it is before the judgment seat of Christ that we all as Christians must come. Then each will receive his commendation from the Lord.
However, to take verses like Romans 1:18 at face value is not "mean-spirited." It is simply to believe along with many other teachings -
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven upon all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who hold down the truth in unrighteousness."
Apparently, I should leave room in my understanding that this "wrath" could include "eternal destruction" of flaming fire and divine vengence.
" ... the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of His power, in flaming fire, Rendering vengence to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His strength, when He comes to be glorified in His saints ..." (2 Thess. 1:7b-10a)
If I am "mean-spirited" to take this word as it seems to communicate, then it is "mean-spirited" according to the pure word of God.
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-Removed-
But what it doesn't say is:
"And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire...and was kept alive and burned for all eternity"
We know that the Antichrist and the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire. We know that they are joined latter by the Devil.
And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimestone, where also the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev. 20:10)
What then do I know?
I know that after one thousand years of being in the lake of fire the Antichrist and the false prophet have not ceased to exist. If they had been consumed to no longer exist then it would not say "where the beast and the false prophet were; and THEY will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
The inclusion of the word "THEY" causes me to know that the being tormented day and night refers to the DEVIL plus the other two who have been their for one thousand years.
If the duo of Antichrist and the Beast, the false prophet HAD been consumed there would be no "THEY" to further experience the burning. It would say "and [he] will be tormented ..." .
Now, I do not say the closing scene of Revelation insists all thrown into this lake of fire have to have the identical measure of punishment. But there is nothing there suggesting the Bible encourages an unbelieving curiosity to see if there are different degrees of suffering.
Assume that the ENTIRE matter should be avoided at all costs.
I have said before, San Quentin Prison may have some places that are bad and some places that are worse and some places which are THE worst. But the astute parent would warn their child that the entire place is to be avoided.
Revelation 20 unquestionably sends the message that this second death is no place anyone should want to be.
I don't think you can come up with a rebuttal to the fact that "THEY" in Rev. 20:10 means those suffering are those both thrown in 1,000 years earlier plus him thrown in 1,000 years latter. Time did not cause the two previously thrown in people to become non-existent.
Originally posted by sonshipI agree here as well, I fellowship with like minded Christians, but they are far and few as far as agreeing on everything.
Like minded is possible. I experience it with other Christians with whom I may have differing opinions on passages of the Bible.
It does not mean that all doctrinal points are argeed upon exactly.
It means that all agree that we should experience Jesus Christ as living Person no matter what.
The Recovery Version translates the Philppians passage a ...[text shortened]... hrist today. We must experience Christ today. We must abide in this living Person Christ today."
I agree doctrinally, which is what I should have said, most Christians are not like minded.
I tend to believe that like minded was meant as Jesus is Lord, period.
Originally posted by wolfgang59
genuine Christians ????
I suppose you get to segregate the genuine from the real according to your own standard!
I suppose you get to segregate the genuine from the real according to your own standard
I didn't say that....you did. But now that you mention it, there is a biblical standard.
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-Removed-
So many words to hide behind. You cannot hide what you posted in this thread that you find the doctrine of eternal burning in hell helps you forgive those who mistreat you. Your thinking is medieval and grotesque.
No it isn't. A horrible fate waits the Devil and those who refuse to be saved from his war on God.
In the Old Testament God says that He will have war with Amalek forever. And then it says that Amalek is "a hand against the throne."
This means that this enemy is more than just against the goodness or holiness of God. He is against the throne of God. He is against the eternal authority of God. He is perpetually in rejection of the eternal throne of God.
A ghastly end is the conclusion to the opposition party against the administration of God.
And you can call this medieval and grotesque as much as it pleases you. The message in typology, of the Amalekites is that there will be enemies of God who will be defeated forever.
Exodus 17:16 -
NET Bible
for he said, "For a hand was lifted up to the throne of the LORD--that the LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation."
Jubilee Bible 2000
for he said, Because Amalek lifted his hand against the throne of the LORD, the LORD will have war with Amalek from generation to generation.
International Standard Version
"Because," he said, "a fist has been raised in defiance against the throne of the LORD, the LORD will wage war against Amalek from generation to generation."
Originally posted by checkbaiterDidn't say what? I did not edit your post I quoted.I suppose you get to segregate the genuine from the real according to your own standard
I didn't say that....you did. But now that you mention it, there is a biblical standard.
But this "biblical standard" ... does that mean that some who
call themselves Christians are not "genuine Christians"?
Do you think it possible that some of those actually think
they are genuine? And maybe of those some may even
think you are not a genuine Christian?
Originally posted by sonshipWhat am I "twisting"? Here is what you posted:
This is the essence of the sentence FMF wishes to twist to prove my eagerness to have God destroy personal enemies.
Actually, the teaching of God's terrible final calling of all people to an account of some kind helps me greatly in the matter of forgiving my enemies and those who mistreat me.
The idea of the awefulness of God's judgment when negative, carries a great benefit to my present day Christian walk. I can forgive those who have mistreated me because I know that all final vengence is God's. And all deserve to be prayed for to be saved.
This is real forgiveness of others through the fear of God.
Such a belief does great benefit to my, as you put it, "moral compass."