Originally posted by sonshipHere's exactly what you said:
God as the ultimate and last Judge empowers my ability to forgive.
Actually, the teaching of God's terrible final calling of all people to an account of some kind helps me greatly in the matter of forgiving my enemies and those who mistreat me.
The idea of the awefulness of God's judgment when negative, carries a great benefit to my present day Christian walk. I can forgive those who have mistreated me because I know that all final vengence is God's. And all deserve to be prayed for to be saved.
This is real forgiveness of others through the fear of God.
Such a belief does great benefit to my, as you put it, "moral compass."
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Besides there is inherent contradiction in your view. If by "forgiveness" I mean I know that they well get their's than that is not forgiveness.
Forgiveness is to forget the offenses.
Sorry, but perhaps not best worded, I still stand by what I wrote and its clarification.
What I do find interesting is that you never really deal with the clarity of Revelation 20:10. Insisting that I am a mean person does nothing to change Revelation 20:10's impact. After 1,000 years, two villians are still there to form a "THEY" who will suffer forever. They where not annihilated.
What do you want me to do with this, pretend it says the opposite?
There are some places though in the New Testament that I would submit are curious caveats which lead me to believe some surprises are in store in the last days. For example, I have noticed that about five times, while Babylon the Great is going up in smoke it says that certain people stood afar off. Its curious that they themselves seem to be escaped inspite of their involvement.
1.) Revelation 18:9,10a - And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived luxuriously with her, will weep and lament over her when they see the smoke of her burning. =, standing AFAR OFF because of fear of her torment ..."
Curiously, the weep and lament "over her", this entity whose smoke goes up forever. They themselves seem to be spared.
2.) Rev. 18:15 - The merchants of these things, who became rich by her, will STAND AFAR OFF because of the fear of her torment, weeping and mourning."
Same concept. We might think they should be involved yet they are spared, standing afar off as witnesses.
3.) Rev. 18:18 - And cried out, seeing the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like the great city?
The city is Rome. Both her material and her religious aspect are under judgment for "in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth" (v.24)
The judgment seems absolute and the saints of God rejoice - "Be glad over her, O heaven and saints and apostles and prophets, because God has judged judgment for you upon her." (v.20)
Yet some standing afar off and bemoaning and weeping (like fools) for her "she will be utterly burned with fire; for strong the Lord God who judges her is strong." (v.8)
I would think that they would be overjoyed that they are not too under this punishment. She undergoes "torment" yet some have been exempted and stand afar off as spectators.
The point in this is that though, I think it was you who labelled me a "hardliner," this and other interesting passages have not escaped my notice. The worst of the worst of God's wrath may not be as easy to fall under as first assumed.
Still the revelation of God does show a terminal point. There are other passages as well which temper my so-called "hardline" apprehension of these things.
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-Removed-"I can do all things through Him who empowers me. " (Phil. 4:13)
This is what Grace really is. It is the enjoying of the enabling of Christ as life in us.
In the Sermon on the Mount there are many things which are just impossible for our fallen Adamic nature to do. These include loving our enemies, turning the other cheek when struck, forgiveness, etc. All these commands are a description of how Jesus lived. He was talking about Himself and how He lived.
Then in the new covenant He comes into His saved people to be grace to them. What He is is available to those who receive Him. So we can do all things through Christ who empowers us.
We also can have self control. If it were not for the indwelling Christ I might fall apart at the thought of the totally lost at the end. Emotionally, I might find it too much to bear and too much to even think about. But Christ within empowers me to say "Amen" to God's will.
Notice that when John in Revelation is standing there gawking at the final terrible destruction of God's enemies, one of the angels that delivered the last bowls of God's wrath calls him away to see the real import matter - the Bride, the Wife, the New Jerusalem as the climax of God's will.
"And one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, Come here; I will show you the bride the wife of the Lamb.
And he carried me away in spirit onto a great and high mountain and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precios stone, like a jasper stone, as clear as crystal." (Rev. 21:9-11)
I have to enter into the spirit and attitude of the Bible. And rather than God forcing our gaze on the ghastly destruction of His enemies, He calls us to rise up to the height and view the eternal city that matches Christ, corresponds to Christ, and marries Christ forever.
The view of the lake of fire is bad. But positively the view of the fulfillment of God's eternal plan is more filling. I let the Holy Spirit come and take me away from gazing down into eternal punishment to the high peak of revelation to see the Jasper colored city.
Before I close this post I will highlight one more matter. John said that the Bride, the Wife - City had the appearance of "a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, as clear as crystal.( v.11)
In chapter 4 God Himself appeared as a jasper stone - "And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance ..." (4:3a)
This means that the communicable glory of God is now the communicable glory of the city of God. In short man has in a real sense become God. Or we could say God has dispensed Himself into His people. No wonder John says of New Jerusalem - "Having the glory of God." (21:11_)
This is what Satan has been fighting against and opposing - that God and man would be united in a mingled "organic" unity. What He is is wrought into His saved people. This is the will of God. That is that He become us and we become Him.
This is what the Eternal Bridegroom will have. And His uncompromising love is as strong as death. His jealously for His mate is like cruel burning flame. For this He became a man and died. And the enemies of His eternal purpose will be crushed beneath Him in unconditional defeat.
Song of Songs 8:6 -
English Standard Version
Set me as a seal upon your heart, as a seal upon your arm, for love is strong as death, jealousy is fierce as the grave. Its flashes are flashes of fire, the very flame of the LORD.
New American Standard Bible
"Put me like a seal over your heart, Like a seal on your arm. For love is as strong as death, Jealousy is as severe as Sheol; Its flashes are flashes of fire, The very flame of the LORD.
And if Satan, his angelic, and demonic, and human followers to the end are to suffer a burning agony for all eternity there is nothing you or I can do about that, aside from eventually see all things from the divine viewpoint and through the eyes of Christ and God.
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You carry on sonship, don't change on account of my blithering.
I don't count your objections as blithering.
I think the Bible is a kind of book that contains something for everyone not to like somewhere.
And forgive me if I seemed to seriously question your Christian belief. You can question mine just as much some late evening when you cannot remember exactly who stands for what.
Now this punishment thing probably contains some surprises.
How do we know that the conscience of the eternally lost may not itself cry out for punishment ? It could be.
Once I was involved in a bad thing with a partner. My conscience was so bothered that I had led this younger person into that error that I wanted all responsibility to fall on me. Something cried for right justice in me.
Fortunately, we both got out of the matter. The details of which will remain unspecified.
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You choose to accept it and suspend your moral code allowing the outcome of this doctrine of death to permeate your thinking to the point where you have admitted that "real forgiveness is made easier by knowing that those who mistreat you are going to be tortured in burning agony for all eternity."
Even you have reread that statement and feel the need to clarify it, and if you are honest you probably regret writing it; yet you seem to lack the will to expose your warped thinking to the scrutiny of true self examination.
Proverbs 24:17,18 has long had my attention -
"Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, And do not let your heart exult when he is overthrown; Lest Jehovah see it, and it displease Him, And He turn away His anger from him."
The forgiveness I speak of is not a gloating or a rejoicing that God will get back at him.
That is simply what you seem to want to hang on me for what I wrote.
And poor FMF wants to hang on like a bulldog to it.
The Proverb 24:17,18 is very much in the same spirit as what I meant to convey. It takes ME out of the center of the universe and acknowledges that God is the center. That "I" was offended is quite secondary. That God is the righteous balancer of the scales of justice is more important.
But you may want to hang on to the meaner motive opinion. Time to move on.
Now, in your view of what death is I think you miss quite a bit. The "second death" is conveyed by you as DEATH in the sense of no more existence.
This won't hold up for either the first death OR the second death. It just doesn't hold up that in all realms and in every realm, DEATH means non-existence.
Want to discuss this ?
I'll take "HELL NO" as an answer - (no pun intended).
But if you do want to discuss a more biblical panorama of this matter of death, we can.
Only to those under the sun, in this realm of physical hereness is death have a meaning of the person is NO MORE. As far as we who are left physically alive on earth, Yes, the dead as GONE. But not in all senses and to all realms are they gone.
It is the same with the second death.
Originally posted by wolfgang59He described it in detail. Again, if you don't want to hear, do not ask.
I was asking what your faith was based upon before your personal experience or were you not a believer until that personal experience?
Please - no more bible quotes.
How long are you going to belittle those whose answers are not "good enough" for you (presumably, "good enough" means vague and/or lip service)? You can't just accept those answers which makes the person look undecided or unsure, even if that's the picture you want to paint).
You could at least be somewhat objective and stop throwing away those answers you don't like.
I just wonder how long the Christians here will continue to walk into the lion's den because "he seems sincere about wanting to know about my faith". Please.
Originally posted by FMFThe Bible is more fascinating.
You wrote what you wrote. I find it fascinating.
For example, no one but no one cares more for the sinner's estrangement from God than Jesus.
I know you would reply that you do not subscribe to Jesus or His words.
But it is still fascinating that I could never exceed Jesus in His concern for those estranged from God and their need for reconciliation.
Neither you, nor divegester, nor me in innocence underwent what He thought He must do for the sinner.
He prayed that the cup might pass from Him. Yet He prayed that it would not be His will that would prevail but the will of His Father.
Do you really think some Galilean fishermen got together and concocted such a character, lying about how they all forsook Him because of His absoluteness to His perceived mission ?
It reads like something that really happened.