Originally posted by checkbaiterBravo. Well said.
I am another that does not subscribe to "eternal torture, agony, etc". I simply believe that the bible has been misinterpreted by many on this subject.
For further study I suggest you can start here...
http://www.truthortradition.com/articles/what-is-hell
I have posted this article before, but it is not the end of the topic by any means. There i ...[text shortened]... n this or that, He is simply going to ask, as some one once said, "What did you do with my Son?"
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Originally posted by wolfgang59Certainly, yes, to all of your questions. Only God knows for certain, but Jesus said we would know them by their fruit.
Didn't say what? I did not edit your post I quoted.
But this "biblical standard" ... does that mean that some who
call themselves Christians are not "genuine Christians"?
Do you think it possible that some of those actually think
they are genuine? And maybe of those some may even
think [b]you are not a genuine Christian?[/b]
I can be deceived as well, unless God reveals it to me.
The way to know for sure is when God reveals Himself to you.
Originally posted by wolfgang59No, because God has revealed Himself to me through His word, and through other means as well. It is something that cannot be explained. You have to experience it.
Do you concede that your conviction in the
existence of a god could be a deceit as well?
If not - why not?
Once you have known Jesus, through the gift of holy spirit, operated the manifestations of holy spirit, etc, there is no going back.
An unbeliever cannot understand.
Originally posted by checkbaiterSo your belief is based on your own personal experience?
No, because God has revealed Himself to me through His word, and through other means as well. It is something that cannot be explained. You have to experience it.
Once you have known Jesus, through the gift of holy spirit, operated the manifestations of holy spirit, etc, there is no going back.
An unbeliever cannot understand.
You were not therefore a believer until you had that experience?
(Or am I missing something?)
Originally posted by wolfgang59Faith comes by hearing, learning God's word. Once this is believed, then things happen.
So your belief is based on your own personal experience?
You were not therefore a believer until you had that experience?
(Or am I missing something?)
Rom 10:17
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
NKJV
Rom 10:8-13
But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
NKJV
Originally posted by wolfgang59I was a believer before that. The word of God solidified it.
I was asking what your faith was based upon before your personal experience or were you not a believer until that personal experience?
Please - no more bible quotes.
Even if you don't want scripture, I'm sorry, but it burns like a fire in my bones.
LOVE COMES FIRST
John 13:35 "By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another."
JOHN 13:35
Jesus didn't say that all men would know we are His disciples by our doctrine, our rituals, our hatred for sin, or even by the way we express our love for God. He said very clearly, that the one characteristic that would cause the world to identify us as His followers, is our love, one for another.
This same night, the Lord prayed to His Father using this same thought saying, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me" (Jn. 17:21). The only way that Christ's body will be one as the Father and Jesus are One, is through God's kind of love.
Unity of believers, that can only come through a genuine God-kind of love, is the greatest tool for evangelism that the church has or will ever have, according to Jesus. The early church didn't have the massive organizational structures that we see today or the ability to travel anywhere in the world in just a matter of hours. They certainly did not come close to spending as much money, in proportion to us, to spread the gospel. And yet, the pagans of Thessalonica said of Paul and his companions, "These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also" (Acts 17:6). They had evangelized the known world in less than thirty years.
Before we can ever fulfill the great commission of Matthew 28:19-20, there must be a revival of love in the church, where doctrine and ritual take a "back seat" to love for one another.
AWM.Ministries
Originally posted by sonshipI do not believe in eternal torment, but even if I am wrong, I will still continue to worship God.
God as the ultimate and last Judge empowers my ability to forgive. And that goes for His cross as well as His lake of fire.
It is not the place which is the key. It is that He is the final Judge as well as the final Redeemer / Savior.
It is irrelevant, He is God and I am not.