Originally posted by sonshipI find your notion of your "real forgiveness" in the context of "perfect ghastliness" and "vengeance" by perpetual torture utterly horrible and disgusting. Fascinating in that way.
The Bible is more fascinating.
For example, no one but no one cares more for the sinner's estrangement from God than Jesus.
I know you would reply that you do not subscribe to Jesus or His words.
But it is still fascinating that I could never exceed Jesus in His concern for those estranged from God and their need for reconciliation.
Neither yo ...[text shortened]... f His absoluteness to His perceived mission ?
It reads like something that really happened.
Originally posted by sonshipI'm just curious, but what do you think of the idea that "Babylon the Great" mentioned in this way in Revelation is synonymous with America (the whore in Rev. 17 being America and the city being New York City)?
Clarification is permitted to writers.
Besides there is inherent contradiction in your view. If by "forgiveness" I mean I know that they well get their's than that is not forgiveness.
Forgiveness is to forget the offenses.
Sorry, but perhaps not best worded, I still stand by what I wrote and its clarification.
What I do find interes ...[text shortened]... re are other passages as well which temper my so-called "hardline" apprehension of these things.
(No, don't blow me off because this is not what you learned or because it never occurred to you. Be objective and tell me what you think of the possibility and how the idea might be fleshed out by the text. I respect your opinion.)
-Removed-Geeeez, I can hardly believe this. Like I've been saying to wolfgang, if you don't like the answer, maybe you should stop asking hard questions.
Everyone expects the secrets of the universe in a sound-byte answer. Education usually requires effort. It's just reading. It's not like you have to paint Mr. Miyagi's fence or wax his cars.
"Wax on! Wax off!"
"Screw this, I'm gonna go watch TV."
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Originally posted by SuzianneAs a matter of fact when I first read these chapters, I imagined New York City also. So I would not blow you off for that view.
I am trying to think how this can be worked into the subject of Pure Goodness. Let me say this and you consider.
1.) What Babylon the Great is in Revelation 17 and 18 should represent the opposite of the pure goodness of whatever the New Jerusalem is.
Why? The contrast is between a WOMAN who is acknowledged as Christ's mate and a WOMAN who is a counterfeit of that. Do you see?
The Bride verses the Harlot.
The Wife verses the Facade, the untrue thing masquerading AS the Wife,
that which matches Jesus as His spouse is verses that which is illegitimately a match.
So first, sister, I would ask you to consider the opposing concepts put against each other in contrast - the Harlot is not the Bride.
2.) Consider also that the symbol of Babylon SHOULD mean what Babylon meant in the Old Testament. That includes a place AWAY from the proper place of God's people. They should not BE there but there are taken away, carried OFF to be there.
God's plan was for the Hebrews to be in the Good Land, the Holy Land with its temple as God's dwelling place. Through their disobedience they were carried off and exiled in Babylon.
Babylon in Revelation 17,18 should have some New Testament correspondence to this history. Babylon must mean a place where God's people have been carried OFF spiritually to be where they were never intended to be.
This is important because we Christians may not realize that God's people are caught away to this thing and that He calls them to come OUT -
"And I heard another voice out of heaven, saying, Come out of her My people, that you do not participate in her sins and that you do not receive her plagues." (Rev. 18:4)
This Babylon must be something of a mixture where "My people" are also carried off against God's perfect will.
3.) We have to also consider that God is angry with this entity because it has been a murderer of the saints and the prophets -
"Pay her back even as she has paid, and double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix to her double." (18:6)
"And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. " (17:6)
Contemplate these matters a bit and I will go on with more keys.
Whatever Babylon is is a facade of what the glorified church as Christ's Wife and Bride is. She must CLAIM a status which she only holds illegitimately.
There are genuine saints of God in her which He calls to "Come out ...". Yet at the same time she has been involved in the spilling of the blood of saints and witnesses of Jesus. This is confusion and mixture. This is an amalgamated confusion of combined things which no one but God can correct.
I'll continue some more points latter.
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Originally posted by FMF
I find your notion of your "real forgiveness" in the context of "perfect ghastliness" and "vengeance" by perpetual torture utterly horrible and disgusting. Fascinating in that way.
I find your notion of your "real forgiveness" in the context of "perfect ghastliness" and "vengeance" by perpetual torture utterly horrible and disgusting. Fascinating in that way.
I find that you are fascinated with a strawman of mostly your own making. You erected it and you gaze fascinated at your own creation.
I think your phrase "in the context" glosses over details which I clarified as if I did not. You choose to ignore much of "in the context" in order to maximize something which you want to believe characterizes all my thoughts.
I think there are two main possibilities with human reaction to the teaching of divine vengeance and eternal punishment.
1.) We can believe that the penalty is too harsh, too terrible to be worthy of a good God.
2.) We can believe that we have fallen from moral normality to such an extent that we are dull to the transgression to which eternal suffering is applied.
I am waging that the latter (#2.) is the case.
Because of the fall of man we are befuddled as to the real hideousness of the nature of rejecting Christ and/or not believing that God really is.
I recognize that a few here, believers and unbelievers, take the former position. After not trivial time considering the matter, I have decided that the latter is the case.
Originally posted by sonshipIf "eternal torment" is not the ideology you propagate or is not "Biblical" then just come out and say so. If "eternal torment" is something I have created then it is a straw man. But you've mentioned many many times. And explained it in detail. So how is it a straw man? If the supposed 'straw man' you are referring to is your thing about how you forgiving people who "mistreat" you is made easier by knowing they will suffer "eternal torment", then that is no straw man; you were explicit and very clear about it.
I find that you are fascinated with a strawman of mostly your own making. You erected it and you gaze fascinated at your own creation.
Originally posted by sonship3.) A third one is that the whole hideous morally bankrupt idea is simply in your imagination and what is interesting is that you not only subscribe to it but also peddle it as some kind of "perfect goodness", and doing so makes you feel "glorious", and thinking your 'opponents' becoming victims of unimaginable vengeful violence makes your forgiveness of them somehow "real".
I think there are two main possibilities with human reaction to the teaching of divine vengeance and eternal punishment.
1.) We can believe that the penalty is too harsh, too terrible to be worthy of a good God.
2.) We can believe that we have fallen from moral normality to such an extent that we are dull to the transgression to which eternal suffering is applied.
Originally posted by checkbaiterI'm interested in the basis for people's beliefs ... that is "where I'm going".
I'm have a pretty good idea where you are going with this, but the witch hunt is over...
I don't understand why you would not want to answer.
And odd use of "witch hunt". What does that mean in the context of this discussion?
Originally posted by wolfgang59People like you, have nothing better to do but act sincere, while all you are looking for is a way to ridicule believers. You like to twist words and accuse and try to make your silly points, while trying to (in your mind) make Christians doubt.
I'm interested in the basis for people's beliefs ... that is "where I'm going".
I don't understand why you would not want to answer.
And odd use of "witch hunt". What does that mean in the context of this discussion?
You are not really interested in the basis for people's belief.
I have already submitted that you don't even know what faith is.
Originally posted by checkbaiterYou are completely wrong about me and your suggestions are
People like you, have nothing better to do but act sincere, while all you are looking for is a way to ridicule believers. You like to twist words and accuse and try to make your silly points, while trying to (in your mind) make Christians doubt.
You are not really interested in the basis for people's belief.
I have already submitted that you don't even know what faith is.
ignorant and offensive. If this tantrum is a smokescreen for you
to hide behind I pity you and your fragile faith - really I do.
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Originally posted by SuzianneI would draw your attention to a few more items about Babylon (Rev. 17,18).
I'm just curious, but what do you think of the idea that "Babylon the Great" mentioned in this way in Revelation is synonymous with America (the whore in Rev. 17 being America and the city being New York City)?
(No, don't blow me off because this is not what you learned or because it never occurred to you. Be objective and tell me what you think of the possibility and how the idea might be fleshed out by the text. I respect your opinion.)
This entity is also "mother". Add to the other aspects that Babylon spawns off other "offspring" which in one way or another are like her.
"And on her forehead there was a name written, "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS AND THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" (Rev. 17:5)
Whatever she is she has given rise to the existence of "daughters" which are like her - "THE MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS".
We also have to recognize that it says she has held responsible for "THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH". Some of the worst things to happen on the earth therefore, are implied to be the doing of this entity.
At this point we must remember that God's people have been carried away into this abominable entity. For God says "Come out of her My people, that you do not participate in her sins ..." (18:4a)
It is impossible then for Christians, God's people there, to say they have nothing to historically to do with whatever this Babylon is.
I repeat, though the saints of God have been carried off to her, she also has murdered the witnesses of Jesus and the prophets. In 17:6 she is "drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus."
The New Jerusalem as the true Wife and Bride of the Lamb has a wall built up with 12 manner of precious stones. But what about the Harlot? It says that the precious stones are gilded upon the woman. That means the stones are only loosely attached on the outside as opposed to them being solidly built into the Wife - City New Jerusalem.
"And the woman was clothed in purple and scarlet, and GILDED with gold and precious stone and pearls, having a golden cup full of abominations and the unclean things of her fornication." (17:4)
The footnote of the Recovery Version on this passage says:
Gold, precious stone, and pearls are the materials with which the New Jerusalem is built (21:18-19,21). But the woman here, the apostate church, is not built in a solid way with these precious things; she is only gilded with these treasures as ornaments for outward display. This is a deception intended to entice people. It is the harlot's false appearance.
In figure, gold signifies the divine nature of God. Hence, the golden cup here indicates that it outward appearance the apostate church does have something of God. But within, her "golden cup" is full of abominations and the unclean things of her fornication, full of idolatry, pagan practices, and satanic things in a heretical religious relationship. Therefore, although the apostate Roman Catholic Church has certain holy things, she has mixed in many evil and unclean things.
Revelation 17 centers on religious Babylon and chapter 18 on material Babylon. There is some overlap. But the apostate Roman Catholic Church is what the symbolism points to in 17 and the city of Rome is what chapter 18 speaks of. There is some overlap of the religious aspect and the material aspect.
The RCC the mother of the sects and denominations which came out of here. These groups broke away yet to a more or lesser degree carried out some of her errors. This is why she is called the "MOTHER OF HARLOTS" .
The RcV footnote on the word "mother" in 17:5 says:
Since the mother of the harlots is the apostate church, the harlots, the daughters of the apostate church, must be all the different sects and groups in Christianity that hold to some extent the teaching, practices, and traditions of the apostate Roman Church. The pure church life has no evil that has been transmitted from the apostate church.
Christians should seek to live the pure church life free from mixture of the polluted things of this Babylon.
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Originally posted by sonshipAccording to your beliefs, do the following words apply to Catholic followers of Jesus too?
Revelation 17 centers on religious Babylon and chapter 18 on material Babylon. There is some overlap. But the apostate Roman Catholic Church is what the symbolism points to in 17 and the city of Rome is what chapter 18 speaks of. There is some overlap of the religious aspect and the material aspect.
The RCC the mother of the sects and denominations whic ...[text shortened]... er degree carried out some of her errors. This is why she is called the [b]"MOTHER OF HARLOTS" .
"God determines that Justice was enacted on my behalf on the cross of Jesus at Calvary. I was judged at the death of Christ. The redeemed sinner is a not a sinner with a dept still incurred. The dept has not been sloppily forgotten in an ultra sentimental way. He is a sinner with the dept paid. Justice on my behalf as a sinner has been accomplished against the Son of God on my behalf, on the behalf of everyone "in Christ" by obeying God's command to believe into Christ. "
Do you believe that God has determined that Justice was enacted on behalf of Catholics on the cross of Jesus at Calvary as well and that they are redeemed sinners like you believe you are?
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Originally posted by FMF
According to your beliefs, do the following words apply to Catholic followers of Jesus too?
"God determines that Justice was enacted on my behalf on the cross of Jesus at Calvary. I was judged at the death of Christ. The redeemed sinner is a not a sinner with a dept still incurred. The dept has not been sloppily forgotten in an ultra sentimental way. He is a ...[text shortened]... e cross of Jesus at Calvary as well and that they are redeemed sinners like you believe you are?
According to your beliefs, do the following words apply to Catholic followers of Jesus too?
Go back and read everything I wrote about Revelation 18:4 - "Come out of her My people ..."
"My [ God's] people" would indicate those justified and redeemed to belong to God. Since they are called to "Come out of her My people ..." that indicates saved and justified people of God are involved with this Harlot whatever she represents.
"God determines that Justice was enacted on my behalf on the cross of Jesus at Calvary. I was judged at the death of Christ. The redeemed sinner is a not a sinner with a dept still incurred. The dept has not been sloppily forgotten in an ultra sentimental way. He is a sinner with the dept paid. Justice on my behalf as a sinner has been accomplished against the Son of God on my behalf, on the behalf of everyone "in Christ" by obeying God's command to believe into Christ. "
Do you believe that God has determined that Justice was enacted on behalf of Catholics on the cross of Jesus at Calvary as well and that they are redeemed sinners like you believe you are?
There is no other way that He would say "Come out of her ** My people ** ..." unless this entity included many of the redeemed. Right ?
Now are you going to "subscribe" to biblical words when they are handy to your opinion but not "subscribe" to them when they argue against you ?
If you had been reading as carefully as when you wanted to pin corrupted morality on me, you should have put two and two together that I believe that justified believers of God are involved with her, whatever she represents.