The OP of the thread is on Pure Goodness. So a discussion on both the New Jerusalem and the Harlot is appropriate. That is because one represents the climax of Christ's salvation finally rendering Him a match, a spouse, a counterpart as a Wife.
As purely righteous as He is His Bride is processed to be.
While the Harlot, obviously has something to do with the things of God and of His salvation but is a MIXTURE.
The golden cup is related to God for gold stands for the divine nature of God. Yet within the cup there is corruption. This is mixture and this is confusion.
" ... having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the unclean things of her fornication." (17:4)
This is the things of God's nature as an outward facade, yet within this matter is corruption.
The journey of God's saved is being processed out of an impure state into a pure one. So interpreting these passages is not as simple as saying -
"Those people over there are the Harlot, the Babylon".
We Christians can leave Babylon but find Babylon will not so easily leave us. This symbolism also speaks of things which are in our blood so to speak.
Now I have to "hairdryer" style I guess, whatever that means, point out that the judgment of Babylon is not carried out directly by God. The judgment of this entity is carried out by the enemies of God under Antichrist.
This, I think, is a big point. People who mix up Antichrist and the Mystery Babylon the Mother or Harlots have not paid attention to the Scriptures well.
In another post I will show that God utilizes Antichrist to judge this Harlot. He does not directly destroy her. He indirectly uses Antichrist to destroy her, whatever she represents.
Put it together all thoughtful readers. In the end times an Antichrist will rise to oppose all that is worshipped as God. In this action he will destroy religions of all kinds, especially the apostate church and her daughters.
"And the ten horns which you saw and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked and will eat her flesh and burn her utterly with fire.
For God has put it into their hearts to perform His mind ..." (Rev. 18:16-18a)
Under God's sovereignty the Antichrist and his kingdom will HATE the apostate Christiandom and perform God's will indirectly to dismantle her.
It is too bad that before the dupes of Antichrist go into eternal damnation they are used under God's sovereignty to oppose the mixtured Babylon. - "these will hate the HARLOT and will make her desolate and naked and will eat her flesh and burn her utterly with fire."
Any Christians out there now maybe a little interested in a pre-great tribulation rapture ?
This entity Babylon boasts. She can point out that there is something of God about her.
Gold, precious stones are symbolic of the divine nature of God and the transformed people of God respectively. Here we see gold and precious stones solidly built into the New Jerusalem.
"And the building work of its wall was jasper; and the city was pure gold, like clear glass. The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every precious stone: ...
And the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass." (See Rev. 32:28,29,21)
This symbolism reveals a destiny of man walking by the divine nature of God. That is why the street is pure gold. Actually what we see here is a huge mountain of gold with a street cut into it.
There is only one street. Nowhere in Revelation does it speak of plural "streets" of gold. There is only ONE golden street of gold. This means there in the church and especially in eternity there is ONE walk and ONE way to live. It is not a Baptist walk or a Prebyterian walk or a Pentacostal walk or a Lutheran walk. It is a walk by the divine nature of God.
The saved have become partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 2:3)
" ... He has granted to us precious and exceeding great promises that through these you might become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."
There is one way to walk in the church and in New Jerusalem - the one golden street of God's divine nature that has been dispensed into the saved.
Babylon, as the Harlot can boast of having something of God's divine nature because she has a golden cup. But inside are the filthy things of her fornication.
The precious stones in both New Jerusalem and Babylon stand for transformed believers. The wall of New Jerusalem is adorned with transformed people forming a protection for God's interests on the earth.
The precious stones related to the Harlot are gilded lightly to her. She can boast that she has some very spiritual people in her. These are displayed to convince the world that she does contain men and women of spirituality which indeed she does. They are guilded on her for advertizement.
We may always notice that there have been and are some very sanctified Christians in the apostate Roman Catholic Church. But as Babylon represents a place of God's people captured, carried away and exiled from their promise land so these unquestionably sanctified believers are lightly attached to the Harlot used always as advertizement.
Once again, the call of God is for His people in end times to come OUT of her - "And I heard another voice out of heaven saying, Come out of her My people, and do not participate in her sins and that you do not receive her plagues;
For her sins have accumulated up to heaven, and God has remembered her unrighteousnesses." (Rev. 18:4,5)
Now, some posters have insisted that Christians on earth at the end times will not and cannot be under God's judgment. But we have to see that God indirectly uses Antichrist and his associates to destroy this mixture Babylon. And this is called a judgment.
"Come here; I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who sits upon the many waters." (Rev. (17:1)
"After these things I saw another Angel coming down out of heaven, having great authority; and the earth was illuminated with His glory.
And He cried with a strong voice, saying, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the Great! And she has become a dwelling place of demons and a hold of every unclean spirit and a hold of every unclean and hateful bird." (Rev. 18:1,2)
The "another Angel" here as in a few other places in Revelation means Jesus Christ. And Christ announces that Babylon is fallen, fallen!
I think we have to recognize then that the judgment of Babylon to fall is something in the heart of God.
This entity Babylon is mixed up with the worldly politics which has made her very strong. This is not spiritual power but political power.
"For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the fury of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, ..." (v.3)
The Harlot boasts of a spousal relationship with Christ. But she has committed fornication with the powerful among world political leaders.
She can boast that there are very spiritual people in her because she is gilded with precious stones as advertizement. Historically she has both contained the disciples of Jesus and murdered them as well.
"And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. And I marveled with great marvel when I saw her." (Rev. 17:6)
It is no wonder that the Apostle John marveled that God showed him that such a thing would develop on the earth. This was prophecy. John was seeing that an apostate Christianity would develop and become world wide future to his days.
Originally posted by sonship"Against" me in what way?
Now are you going to "subscribe" to biblical words when they are handy to your opinion but not "subscribe" to them when they argue against you ?
So just to be clear and concise, according to your beliefs, Catholics are redeemed and saved by obeying God's command to believe into Christ, just as you are?
Originally posted by FMFI wrote above:
Here's exactly what you said:
[b]Actually, the teaching of God's terrible final calling of all people to an account of some kind helps me greatly in the matter of forgiving my enemies and those who mistreat me.
The idea of the awefulness of God's judgment when negative, carries a great benefit to my present day Christian walk. I can forgive those who have ...[text shortened]... gh the fear of God.
Such a belief does great benefit to my, as you put it, "moral compass."[/b]
1.) Actually, the teaching of God's terrible final calling of all people to an account of some kind helps me greatly in the matter of forgiving my enemies and those who mistreat me.
2.) The idea of the awefulness of God's judgment when negative, carries a great benefit to my present day Christian walk.
3.) I can forgive those who have mistreated me because I know that all final vengence is God's.
4.) And all deserve to be prayed for to be saved.
5.) This is real forgiveness of others through the fear of God.
6.) Such a belief does great benefit to my, as you put it, "moral compass."
Which sentence in of these six explicitly states that I want to see some offender against me personally perish ?
If I am eager to see the offender perish why does sentence # 4 state " And ** ALL ** deserve to be prayed for to be saved. " ?
If sentence #1 refers to my belief in a final accounting to God "of some kind" how does that mean the only judgment I have in mind is eternal damnation ?
If you personally have no fear of God whatsoever, why should I expect you to understand any of this ?
If "my enemies" deserve to be prayed for according to #4 how could that be done effectively if there had not been forgiveness first ?
You ever try praying for someone you hate ?
If I believe that all deserve to be prayed for how can I also hope every offender falls under God's vengence ?
Where in any of these sentences is the thought that by not praying and not forgiving I am AIDING divine Justice to take place ?
Originally posted by sonshipI have no fear of the things you happen to imagine. What is interesting is that you think you espouse something moral when in fact it comes across as vainglorious and misanthropic. This ideology of "perfect ghastliness" for thoughtcrimes you peddle is not difficult to understand. Don't kid yourself. You told me, if I want to believe in your God figure, I should watch how you live. Well, I am watching.
If you personally have no fear of God whatsoever, why should I expect you to understand any of this ?
I wrote:
I have to believe that rejecting the highest Authority is reduced to "not believing something."
This was a typo.
I meant to write "I have to believe that rejecting the highest Authority is [not] reduced to merely "not believing something".
In other words a person can not believe many things and not believe IN many things.
Apparently, there is a state of unrecoverable offense when the "something" is God. Open eyed rejection is what I see in all this and not ignorance.
I imagine something like the end of a rail road track. A train may travel thousands of miles. But somewhere there is a place where that track terminates with a big steal and wood barrier bolted to stop the engine from proceeding further.
There is a terminal point of an unrecoverable rejection of God. And in the new heaven and new earth no trace of this rejection will be left. Satan the leader will be burned up and all who follow him to the uttermost will co-partake of that perpetual crushing.
If God breaks His word concerning this or any other word He has promised the universe which is held up by His faithful word I expect would collapse. There will be in the eternal age "new heavens and new earth in which righteousness dwells." Nothing will be left of the rebellion.
The "train track" of His forebearance may be long. It is most likely longer than I can imagine. But there is a last station and a end of the track in this regard, otherwise the Bible wouldn't clearly state so.
Originally posted by FMFSo you do fear God ?
I have no fear of the things you happen to imagine. What is interesting is that you think you espouse something moral when in fact it comes across as vainglorious and misanthropic. This ideology of "perfect ghastliness" for thoughtcrimes you peddle is not difficult to understand. Don't kid yourself. You told me, if I want to believe in your God figure, I should watch how you live. Well, I am watching.
No, you do NOT fear God ?
No, you do not fear "things" I imagine, but you DO fear God ?
Or just leave the whole thing in an ambiguous fog of non-committal agnosticism ?
Originally posted by sonshipI do not fear the things you imagine. When have I ever said that? I just find your moral compass ~ in this matter of you finding it personally easier for you [for forgiving people] if you remind yourself that people who mistreat you will be punished with torture in burning agony for eternity ~ to be utterly dysfunctional.
No, you do not fear "things" I imagine, but you DO fear God ?
Originally posted by FMF
I have no fear of the things you happen to imagine. What is interesting is that you think you espouse something moral when in fact it comes across as vainglorious and misanthropic. This ideology of "perfect ghastliness" for thoughtcrimes you peddle is not difficult to understand. Don't kid yourself. You told me, if I want to believe in your God figure, I should watch how you live. Well, I am watching.
This ideology of "perfect ghastliness" for thoughtcrimes
That's interesting. What I see Jesus warn concerns a man's words (Matt. 12:37) -
King James Bible
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."
Expected pushback - "What about the dumb ?"
Concerning our thought life:
When you become a Christian you learn that some thoughts are being injected into your thought life from evil forces in the spiritual realm. You do not have to claim responsibility for everything that passes through your mind.
No, I cannot explain all the physics of this. But the older folks use to have a saying - "You can't stop the birds from flying over your head. But you can stop them from making a nest in your hair."
Exaggeration to Orwellian "thought crimes" can be pushed to a ridiculous extreme. And the passage Matthew 12:37 warns of "words" and Revelation 20:12 speaks of "works."
"And the dead were judged by the things which were written in the scrolls, according to their works." (Rev. 20:12b)
I put the two passages together for a better picture.