1. Standard membersonship
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    02 Oct '13 12:31
    Rajk999,

    Move your one favorite topic over here and continue to debate me if you wish.

    So Jaywill, you go ahead and preach your false doctrine that all who accepts Christ with their mouth will be eternally saved. Those who can read and understand know better.


    You are saying Romans 10:9 , direct apostolic teaching is false doctrine.

    "That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

    For with the heart there is believing unto righteousness, and with the mouth there is confession unto salvation."


    Okay Rajk999, you've wanted this fight for a long time.

    You and me, right here. Go ahead and prove this to be false teaching.
  2. Standard memberRajk999
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    02 Oct '13 13:49
    Originally posted by sonship
    Rajk999,

    Move your one favorite topic over here and continue to debate me if you wish.

    So Jaywill, you go ahead and preach your false doctrine that all who accepts Christ with their mouth will be eternally saved. Those who can read and understand know better.


    You are saying [b]Romans 10:9
    , direct apostolic teaching is fal ...[text shortened]... fight for a long time.

    You and me, right here. Go ahead and prove this to be false teaching.[/b]
    Im afraid you and your followers are going to be disappointed becuase there is no such thing as Rajk999ism. I do not provide interpretations and explanations and conclusions. I quote you the words of Christ and the Apostles verbatim as they said it. There is however something as Sonshipism. You love to expand and assume and analyse and come to your own conclusions which are quite often very far removed from what was actually said. Its the words of Christ and the Apostles you want to refute. So go right ahead.
  3. Standard memberapathist
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    02 Oct '13 20:13
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Im afraid you and your followers are going to be disappointed becuase there is no such thing as Rajk999ism. I do not provide interpretations and explanations and conclusions. I quote you the words of Christ and the Apostles verbatim as they said it. There is however something as Sonshipism. You love to expand and assume and analyse and come to your own concl ...[text shortened]... s actually said. Its the words of Christ and the Apostles you want to refute. So go right ahead.
    I thought the scrolls were written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.

    verbatim
  4. Standard membersonship
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    02 Oct '13 21:014 edits
    Im afraid you and your followers are going to be disappointed becuase there is no such thing as Rajk999ism.


    Rajk999's heresy is to make the loss of salvation as the one and only answer to all spiritual problems of Christians.

    You are like a quack doctor with only one medicine for everything. That is why you continually bring up your roller coaster concept of salvation.


    I do not provide interpretations and explanations and conclusions. I quote you the words of Christ and the Apostles verbatim as they said it.


    I don't need you to post your comments. When I see your errors I'll just paste them in here and deal with them as the need arises.


    There is however something as Sonshipism. You love to expand and assume and analyse and come to your own conclusions which are quite often very far removed from what was actually said. Its the words of Christ and the Apostles you want to refute. So go right ahead.


    If your last example is an interpretation "far removed" from what was actually said, what was actually said was that

    "For the earth, which drinks the rain which often comes upon it and produces vegetation suitable to those for who sake also it is cultivated, partakes of blessing from God.

    But if it brings forth thorns and thistles, it is disapproved and near a curse, whose end is to be burned." (Heb. 6:7,8)


    The part[aking] of blessing of Hebrews 6:7 corresponds to "receive a reward" of First Corinthians 3:14.

    The thorns and thistles being burned in Heb. 6:8 corresponds to the suffer loss of First Corinthians 3:15. And it corresponds to the wood, grass, and stubble as worthless building material going up in a flaming examination before Jesus.

    The burning of the unsuitable thorns and thistles corresponds to the believer being close to a curse and being saved yet so as through fire.

    And in the very chapter 6 he wrote that we should now LEAVE the "word of the beginning of the Christ" (v.1)

    We are encouraged to move on to maturity - "let us be brought on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works ... and of eternal judgment." .

    The gaining of reward or the loss and discipline in the coming millennial kingdom is a matter for the more mature. You are not able to discern it. For you want to revisit again and again the "foundation" which you seem not to be able to graduate from.

    If you still cannot see that the discipline spoken of in this chapter is not the punishment of eternity but the discipline of "the age to come" (v.5)

    What is the age to come ? What is the age following the church age? Is the age immediately following the church age the eternal age ? No it is not. the phrase "the age to come" in Hebrews 6:5 refers to the age of the one thousand year millennial kingdom commencing from the second coming of Christ - ( Revelation 20:2,3,4,5,6,7 ) .

    Count the number of times in those verses the Bible mentions "a thousand years" or "the thousand years".

    The eternal age is AFTER the millennial kingdom of a thousand years (Rev. 20:5).

    So when Hebrews 6 speaks of "And have tasted the powers of THE AGE TO COME." (v.5) the subject matter is not eternal punishment but dispensational discipline administered during the thousand year millennial kingdom.

    That is the age of the gaining or loss of reward to the Christian.
  5. Standard memberRemoved
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    02 Oct '13 22:021 edit
    Raj, I think your problem is you do not understand the love of God, nor the Grace of God. You also do not understand how vast and how incredible the sacrifice Jesus made was.
    Heb 10:11-14

    11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. 14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
    NKJV

    God loves His children, and even when, not "if" we sin, He still loves us. We may be condemning ourselves by our conscience, but this does not affect salvation because the above verses clearly say he perfected "forever" those who are being sanctified, which we are.

    Many churches today preach a "performance" mentality. That is, if you are good, God is happy, if you are not, he is angry and will cast you to hell.
    Nobody, but nobody can live a perfectly holy life. Therefore every one will be cast into Hell, by the performance mentality.


    These verses clearly show we all sin.

    1 John 1:5-10

    5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

    8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
    NKJV

    We confess our sin only to clear our own conscience, not to be confused with salvation because the sin problem has been dealt with in Christ.

    This is not a license to sin, but freedom from sin. There is a big difference. When a person so loves Jesus Christ, we don't want to sin, but sin is inevitable.
    As soon as some one cuts you off in traffic, or does something to trigger our anger, we sin. We all do.

    Now if someone habitually sins and rebels' against God, never studies his bible, never attends church, gets drunk, etc., I would question if they were ever born again to begin with.

    The sacrifice Jesus made, paid for the sins of everyone forever! All a person has to do is confess him as Lord, believe God raised him from the dead and they are saved. We are continuously cleansed. Again, this is not a license to sin.

    Look, if I sin, I am opening the door for Satan and giving him permission to give me disease, mess with my finances, mess with my family and just destroy my life.

    That is the difference. I don't serve Satan anymore, I have been redeemed, bought back and I now serve the Lord Jesus Christ who loved me and died for me.

    Why would I want to sin? That would be stupid! I abhor sin, I hate it, but I find there is still sin in me....read Romans 6...

    The way to deal with the sin in our minds is to agree with God, that he is right and my sin is wrong, but this is only to remain in fellowship with him. It has nothing to do with salvation.

    God is always the same. His love is constant. I am not. A sin conscience cannot love God back the way it should. So confession is to clear my conscience so that I may approach God boldly as I should....

    Look at this verse...
    Eph 1:13-14
    In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
    NKJV
    These verses have a tone of permanence wouldn't you say?...I pray you understand this...
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    02 Oct '13 23:23
    Originally posted by sonship
    Rajk999,

    Move your one favorite topic over here and continue to debate me if you wish.

    So Jaywill, you go ahead and preach your false doctrine that all who accepts Christ with their mouth will be eternally saved. Those who can read and understand know better.


    You are saying [b]Romans 10:9
    , direct apostolic teaching is fal ...[text shortened]... fight for a long time.

    You and me, right here. Go ahead and prove this to be false teaching.[/b]
    the way it is worded means professing that jesus is the savior is enough to be saved. that if you believe he was raised from the dead will automatically get you a ticket to the green pastures.


    faith without works is meaningless.
  7. Account suspended
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    02 Oct '13 23:273 edits
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    Raj, I think your problem is you do not understand the love of God, nor the Grace of God. You also do not understand how vast and how incredible the sacrifice Jesus made was.
    Heb 10:11-14

    11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one ...[text shortened]...
    NKJV
    These verses have a tone of permanence wouldn't you say?...I pray you understand this...
    you can say what you like, infact many will be saying the same thing,

    (Matthew 7:21-23) “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.

    RajK is absolutely correct, FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS meaningless, saying that you love someone and doing nothing for that person is meaningless. The one doing, not saying, is the one that will see salvation.

    Clearly you must first know what the will of the Father is and then you must do it. Do you know what the will of the Father is checkbaiter?
  8. Standard memberRemoved
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    03 Oct '13 00:211 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    you can say what you like, infact many will be saying the same thing,

    (Matthew 7:21-23) “Not everyone [b]saying
    to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel de ...[text shortened]... the Father is and then you must do it. Do you know what the will of the Father is checkbaiter?[/b]
    Yes, to believe on His son Jesus Christ.

    You are wrong though, you are reading old testament and mixing it with new testament.

    Heb 8:13

    13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
    NKJV

    Heb 10:1-4
    For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.

    You are the one who seems to want to crucify Jesus daily.

    The bible clearly says his sacrifice is forever. Our sins are cleansed past, present and future.

    Are you saying you no longer sin?
  9. Account suspended
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    03 Oct '13 01:372 edits
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    Yes, to believe on His son Jesus Christ.

    You are wrong though, you are reading old testament and mixing it with new testament.

    Heb 8:13

    13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
    NKJV

    Heb 10:1-4
    For the law, having a shadow of the good things ...[text shortened]... is forever. Our sins are cleansed past, present and future.

    Are you saying you no longer sin?
    what are you talking about, i have quoted a singe scriptural reference from the book of matthew and partly quoted one from the book of James, both in the Greek portion of the bible. Your assertion that i am mixing anything is ludicrous, have you been mixing your drinks? and even if it were true, which its not, there are over four hundred direct quotations from the Hebrew portion of scripture in the Greek, will you also accuse Christ and the apostles of mixing old with new? what an utterly ludicrous thing you have said.

    I fully acknowledge that i am sinful, now you will address the points that i raised or will you do what you usually do and ignore them because they are inconvenient truths for you. Jesus said that, in contrast to those who simply give lip service (saying) that those who are DOING the will of the father, will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, shall i quote it again? So what is Gods will and how are you DOING IT?
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    03 Oct '13 02:272 edits
    Originally posted by sonship
    Rajk999,

    Move your one favorite topic over here and continue to debate me if you wish.

    So Jaywill, you go ahead and preach your false doctrine that all who accepts Christ with their mouth will be eternally saved. Those who can read and understand know better.


    You are saying [b]Romans 10:9
    , direct apostolic teaching is fal ...[text shortened]... fight for a long time.

    You and me, right here. Go ahead and prove this to be false teaching.[/b]
    It says "you will be saved" and not "you have been saved."

    I don't have a horse in this race but I can clearly see that this in no way implies you don't have to do anything else to gain salvation. I, personally, would take it to mean that because you have accepted christ as your savior he will now help save you. Kind of like leaning on the lord to keep righteous... thats my two bits.
  11. Standard memberRemoved
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    03 Oct '13 11:01
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    what are you talking about, i have quoted a singe scriptural reference from the book of matthew and partly quoted one from the book of James, both in the Greek portion of the bible. Your assertion that i am mixing anything is ludicrous, have you been mixing your drinks? and even if it were true, which its not, there are over four hundred direct quot ...[text shortened]... e Kingdom of the heavens, shall i quote it again? So what is Gods will and how are you DOING IT?
    Robbie, Robbie, I don't drink, no need for sarcasm. We can learn from the old testament, but it is not addressed to us. Walking in newness of life actually started on the day of Pentecost in the book of Acts...
  12. Account suspended
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    03 Oct '13 11:242 edits
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    Robbie, Robbie, I don't drink, no need for sarcasm. We can learn from the old testament, but it is not addressed to us. Walking in newness of life actually started on the day of Pentecost in the book of Acts...
    I was talking of mixing carrot juice and radish juice, it had a debilitating effect on Buggs bunny, i wondered if perhaps you also had made this mistake! 😵

    Can you address the point that I made, that being, that Christ distinguishes between lip service and those doling the will of God, does he not?
  13. Standard membersonship
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    03 Oct '13 11:442 edits
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    s.


    faith without works is meaningless.[/b]
    the way it is worded means professing that jesus is the savior is enough to be saved.


    " ... if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord ..." Is that what you are referring to ?

    "Lord Jesus. O Lord Jesus! I receive you Lord Jesus as my Lord and Savior. Lord Jesus I love You. O Lord Jesus I want to love you more."

    The living Lord is faithful. He is rich to all who call upon Him -

    "For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all and rich to all who call upon Him; For 'whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.' "


    that if you believe he was raised from the dead will automatically get you a ticket to the green pastures.


    "Get your ticket to the green pastures" is probably your whimsical expression. But if we be more serious about it, being saved eternally is receiving Jesus Himself into your heart. Christ the living Person makes His home in your heart through faith.

    Being saved eternally is being "joined to the Lord" - "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17).

    That means that the Spirit of God which is the Spirit of Christ unites with your human spirit - the kernel and deepest part of your being. The Holy Spirit and the human spirit become JOINED to be "one spirit".

    To speak of "ticket" is to trivialize salvation.
    And to speak of "green pastures" may be a pleasant human thought but it is really the receiving of God Himself.

    No green pasture compares to God Himself. So believing into Christ is believing into God Himself. Of course with God we receive quite a lot of wonderful matters. But mostly we receive the uncreated eternal Divine Father and His eternal love.

    If you confess with your mouth " Lord Jesus " and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall receive God as salvation. And you would only CALL upon the Lord Jesus if you believed that the Lord Jesus was indeed alive and available.

    Which of course He is. He is because He rose from the dead.


    faith without works is meaningless.


    The passage discussed in this post is Romans 10:9 which is not about works. It is about the meaningfulness of confessing the Lord Jesus and believing He is alive and available.

    No one said the entire New Testament consists of only one passage - Romans 10:9.
  14. Standard membersonship
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    03 Oct '13 12:09
    It says "you will be saved" and not "you have been saved."


    That is right.

    Is your point that the Christian today who calls upon the name of the Lord Jesus has no right to be assured that he IS saved right now ? Well, this is nor true on all levels.

    The human being is tripartite - spirit and soul and body.
    As to his spirit he is saved at the moment of regenerated.
    As to his soul as he is being transformed he is indeed being saved.
    And as to his physical body at resurrection and transfiguration or rapture, he WILL be saved as to the future.

    Now, I agree that as to soul and body - "you will be saved.". But there is ample reason to REJOICE and be ASSURED that we are SAVED at the very present moment of believing.

    First John 5:11,12 - "And this is the testimony, that God GAVE to us eternal life and this life is in His Son.

    He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

    I have written these things to you that you may know that you HAVE eternal life, to you who believe into the name of the Son of God."


    Did you get that?
    Has the Son ... HAS eternal life.
    You may KNOW that you HAVE eternal life.

    So yes, Romans 10:9 said "will be saved". But now the Christian who HAS the Son of God may rejoice that she HAS eternal life.


    I don't have a horse in this race but I can clearly see that this in no way implies you don't have to do anything else to gain salvation.


    No one is saying Romans 10:9 is the only passage in the New Testament.

    God's eternal purpose is that the saved person be eventually conformed to the image of Christ. That is a life long process. That is not instantaneous. That concerns the WHY we need to be saved. We need to be saved not merely for our own safety from judgment. Though that is a real need to be saved it is not God's eternal purpose merely to forgive us.

    Rather the salvation is that we may be conformed to the image of the Son of God as the Firstborn.

    "Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers." (Romans 8:29)

    So we first may be concerned mainly for OUR need to be saved from judgment. As we grow we see more of the purpose of God that we need to be "conformed to the image of His Son".

    Now in this process of transformation and conformation we can begin to speak of works and daily behavior and all those matters pertaining to how we then live once receiving the gift of eternal life.


    I, personally, would take it to mean that because you have accepted christ as your savior he will now help save you. Kind of like leaning on the lord to keep righteous... thats my two bits.


    Your two bits are really good. And if you have not read through the New Testament, I hope you would.

    For Christ saves initially. And Christ continues to save. And He said He is the true Vine and the believers are the branches abiding IN the vine. Without continually abiding in Him we can do nothing.

    I hope no one gets the impression that we should stop our study of the New Testament with just Romans chapter 10.

    By the way - "shall be saved" and "rich to all who call upon Him" need not be relegated ONLY to eternal salvation. We can call upon the Lord to be saved DAILY from our lust, our temper, our depression, our moodiness, our envy, strife, vanity, darkness, hatred, anxiety.

    Calling on the Lord Jesus is great for my being saved for eternity. It is also wonderfully for me being SAVED from my fallen sinful nature today.

    http://www.callingonthelord.org/
  15. Standard membersonship
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    03 Oct '13 12:163 edits
    Is anyone going to object on the grounds of Matthew 7:21 - "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of the heavens ..." ?

    That's the standard objection by Arminians to Romans 10:9.

    I am ready to discuss that too.
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