Refuting Rajk999ism

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Christ's work at Calvary was "finished", there is nothing more to do and therefore any effort to do it is futile

this is a flawed and erroneous statement ...

Christ said "it is finished". I think you ought to take it up with him.

The fact that we are commanded to do good works post salvation is completely irrelevant to the claim that they are required for that salvation. Obedience is an output of salvation and witness of a changed life.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
an excellent post! clear concise and to the point.

And error.

Rajk999ism's typical misunderstanding and misrepresentation of that the New Testament says -

But they equate that 'saved' to eternal life which is only granted in the day of judgment.

First John 5:12,13 states that the believer presently HAS the Son of God and therefore presently HAS eternal life.

"He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

I have written these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life, to you who believe in the name of the Son of God."

John does not say he who has the Son will be granted eternal life in the future. He says the one having the Son now also HAS eternal life NOW.

In the same epistle John says that the believers know that they have passed from death to life because of the love they have towards the brothers.

"We know that we have passed out of death into life because we love the brothers. He who does not love abides in death." (1 John 3:14)

Love is the expression of divine life. We Christians know that we have already passed out of death and into life because we love the brotherhood and the brothers.

John does not say that one day in the future it will be granted that we pass into life. We know that we have already done so when we allow the divine love to flow out from us.

PUSHBACK - But doesn't it also say that "He who does not love abides in death. Everyone who hates his brother [Christian brother] abides in death. Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (3:14b.15)


Doesn't this mean that the Christian who hates his brother does not have eternal life ? So if he does not have eternal life he is lost to perdition forever. Right ?

No. The Christian who restrains the divine love from flowing through him out to the brothers practically does not let eternal life ABIDE in him. He does not does not possess the practical expression of that life because he abides in his old nature, in spiritual death.

No murderer, no brother hating the other brothers has eternal life "abiding" in him. He has the gift of eternal life still. That life is not free to bide in him, remain in him in a practical fellowship. Neither does he practically abide in that indwelling life. This is abnormal. This is to be defeated. This is to not be an overcomer in the area of love.

The verses is not about being un-born again again. And it is not about being unredeemed forever.

As you correctly state, no Christian is 'saved' in the sense of being granted eternal life. They mistakenly believe that they already have eternal life.

" I have written these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life, to you who believe in the name of the Son of God."

First John 5:12,13 refutes Rajk999ism's LOAN of eternal life.

Originally posted by divegeester
Christ's work at Calvary was "finished", there is nothing more to do and therefore any effort to do it is futile. ...

IF you know your Bible you would know that the most distasteful thing in the mouth of Christ and God is hypocrisy and that is why mouth worship is condemned.

So becuase Christ work is finished then Christians can now have the pleasure of paying lip service ie they proclaim they accept Christ with their mouth and then proceed to live the most worldly greedy selfish unChristian lives and they still get eternal life.

You must think God is a fool.

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. (Galatians 6:7-8 KJV)

Read it divegeester.
Live in the flesh = corruption = death
Live in the spirit = eternal life.

Living in the spirit means following the commandments of Christ = good works, love and charity.

Originally posted by Rajk999
IF you know your Bible you would know that the most distasteful thing in the mouth of Christ and God is hypocrisy and that is why mouth worship is condemned.

So becuase Christ work is finished then Christians can now have the pleasure of paying lip service ie they proclaim they accept Christ with their mouth and then proceed to live the most worldly greed ...[text shortened]...
Living in the spirit means following the commandments of Christ = good works, love and charity.

No. Many of us do not think God is a fool at all.

You have a foolish thought - The only way God has to deal with any and all kinds of Christian failure is to revoke the "gift" of eternal life and take back the eternal redemption.

This is the foolish thought read into the Bible.

Originally posted by divegeester
Christ said "it is finished". I think you ought to take it up with him.

The fact that we are commanded to do good works post salvation is completely irrelevant to the claim that they are required for that salvation. Obedience is an output of salvation and witness of a changed life.

Christ was talking of his earthly purpose, to give his life , a ransom, in exchange for many, not your personal salvation, you are not saved, all you have is the prospect that you may live forever, that is all you can claim at present, nothing more.

Originally posted by divegeester
And error.

hardly, its spot on!

Originally posted by Rajk999
IF you know your Bible you would know that the most distasteful thing in the mouth of Christ and God is hypocrisy and that is why mouth worship is condemned.

So becuase Christ work is finished then Christians can now have the pleasure of paying lip service ie they proclaim they accept Christ with their mouth and then proceed to live the most worldly greed ...[text shortened]...
Living in the spirit means following the commandments of Christ = good works, love and charity.

That is your opinion and you are clearly wedded to it. I have no doubt that god commands good works of his people but The Gospel of Jesus Christ is so simple people cannot believe it. "...not by works so no man can boast".

My post on the previous page lays out very calmly the message of salvation through the "finished" work of Christ as is described by the appropriate scriptures.

By the way, Jesus was talking to you when he said "it is finished".

Originally posted by sonship
No. Many of us do not think God is a fool at all.

You have a foolish thought - The only way God has to deal with any and all kinds of Christian failure is to revoke the "gift" of eternal life and take back the eternal redemption.

This is the foolish thought read into the Bible.

Its not foolish at all, you are not saved, all you can claim is that you have the prospect of everlasting life, nothing more.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
hardly, its spot on!

There is virtually nothing that you and I agree on or have in common. The fact that you, a member of a pernicious religious cult, agree with someone who supports your error is hardly likely to improve that situation and certainly does nothing for the other person's credibility to be frank.

Originally posted by sonship
Rajk999ism's typical misunderstanding and misrepresentation of that the New Testament says -

But they equate that 'saved' to eternal life which is only granted in the day of judgment.

[b] First John 5:12,13 states that the believer presently HAS the Son of God and therefore presently HAS eternal life.

"He who has the ...[text shortened]... name of the Son of God."

First John 5:12,13 refutes Rajk999ism's LOAN of eternal life.[/b]

Maybe you should take the trouble to read the whole passage . The same John says :

1Jn_2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

THE PROMISE OF ETERNAL LIFE.
In case you dont understand. It means its not awarded just yet.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Christ was talking of his earthly purpose, to give his life , a ransom, in exchange for many, not your personal salvation, you are not saved, all you have is the prospect that you may live forever, that is all you can claim at present, nothing more.

Are you saved Robbie ?

God forbid - but what if the building around you should collapse upon you and you die instantly tonight ?

Do you know that you would not perish forever unsaved ?
Not sure? Hoping for the best?
Hoping to see how it will turn out for you ?

Take First John 5:12,13 and pray it back to God until you get the assurance that you HAVE eternal life.

"He who has the Son of God has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. I write these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life, to you who believe into the name of the Son of God."

You should pray and insist to Jehovah God that you simply have to have the assurance that you have the Son of God and therefore HAVE now - eternal life.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Maybe you should take the trouble to read the whole passage . The same John says :

1Jn_2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

THE PROMISE OF ETERNAL LIFE.
In case you dont understand. It means its not awarded just yet.

Come on, come on! What do you think "eternal" means? And for that matter what do you think "promise" means when god says it?

Originally posted by divegeester
There is virtually nothing that you and I agree on or have in common. The fact that you a member of a pernicious religious cult, agree with some who supports your error is hardly likely to improve that situation and certainly does nothing for the other persons credibility to be frank.

Once again you deem it appropriate to bring Jehovahs witnesses into the argument when in fact it has absolutely nothing to do with it, is again a reflection of your weak and beggarly arguments and you are absolutely correct, for what part does light have with darkness, Christ with Satan, a believer with an unbeliever, thats how much you and I have in common.

Originally posted by sonship
Are you saved Robbie ?

God forbid - but what if the building around you should collapse upon you and you die instantly tonight ?

Do you know that you would not perish forever unsaved ?
Not sure? Hoping for the best?
Hoping to see how it will turn out for you ?

Take First John 5:12,13 and pray it back to God until you get the assurance ...[text shortened]... y have to have the assurance that you have the Son of God and therefore HAVE now - eternal life.

No I am not saved and neither are you despite your delusions of grandeur, all you can claim is that you hold out the prospect of living forever, that is it, nothing more.