13 Sep 05
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Originally posted by no1marauderBTW, the Mormons score 11/12 or 92% on your Apostles Creed test (miss the one Church bit). Is that high enough to be considered Christian??
I presented a link to a Mormon website giving the details of their belief system; I would imagine that anyone who isn't being completely intellectually dishonest would regard that as sufficient "research". Go read it yourself.
BTW, the Mormons score 11/12 or 92% on your Apostles Creed test (miss the one Church bit). Is that high enough to be considered Christian??
Actually, they fail Article (3) as well - Mormons believe that Jesus was the biological and spiritual son of Mary and Elohim/God the Father. He was not conceived by the Holy Spirit†.
I think they would also struggle to get past Article (1), as they believe that Elohim shaped pre-existing matter rather than create the Universe out of nothing - but I'll let that pass.
So that's 10/12 or 83%.
Note that nearly all Christian Churches and denominations (e.g. Lutherans, Anglicans, Episcopelians) would score 100% on the Apostles Creed. In fact, so would the Arians.
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† http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/mormon/beliefs/christians/christian2.shtml
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13 Sep 05
Originally posted by lucifershammerYou know you are. They are using the term "gods" (little g) in a different manner from what RBHILL suggested. You are perfectly aware of this and so have taken to using the term "deification" rather than your pal RB's formulation. Their position is clear and you and RB continue to misrepresent it.
[b]I presented a link to a Mormon website giving the details of their belief system; I would imagine that anyone who isn't being completely intellectually dishonest would regard that as sufficient "research". Go read it yourself.
I have. And nothing on the site provided contradicts what I and RBHill have written about the Mormon doctrine of ...[text shortened]... rine?
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† http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/response/qa/godhood.htm
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Cheers,
LH[/b]
13 Sep 05
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Originally posted by UmbrageOfSnowThe point is that the Mormons believe that Elohim and the Holy Ghost are two separate beings, two separate Gods (though united in will and purpose).
I thought you believed that god and the holy spirit were the same thing. If they said he was the son of god and you say the is the son of the holy spirit, how is that a disagreement.
13 Sep 05
Originally posted by lucifershammerSorry, have to kick it back up to 92%.
[b]BTW, the Mormons score 11/12 or 92% on your Apostles Creed test (miss the one Church bit). Is that high enough to be considered Christian??
Actually, they fail Article (3) as well - Mormons believe that Jesus was the biological and spiritual son of Mary and Elohim/God the Father. He was not conceived by the Holy Spirit†.
I think they woul ...[text shortened]...
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† http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/mormon/beliefs/christians/christian2.shtml
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If Jesus is truly the Son of God the Father, then what part did the Holy Ghost play in his miraculous conception? The Father used the power of the Holy Ghost as an agent, or enabler, so that a virgin could give birth to his Son. The specifics are beyond our knowledge and possibly our comprehension.
http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/
I'll admit that sounds like a load of rubbish, but so does most Christian doctrine regarding "virgin birth".
13 Sep 05
Originally posted by no1marauderIt's clear that this signifies the end of serious debate from your side. My citations and sources are on record - I'll leave it to the serious reader to decide whether I'm "misrepresenting" Mormon doctrine.
You know you are. They are using the term "gods" (little g) in a different manner from what RBHILL suggested. You are perfectly aware of this and so have taken to using the term "deification" rather than your pal RB's formulation. Their position is clear and you and RB continue to misrepresent it.
LH
13 Sep 05
Originally posted by no1marauderGive the specific page, please.
Sorry, have to kick it back up to 92%.
If Jesus is truly the Son of God the Father, then what part did the Holy Ghost play in his miraculous conception? The Father used the power of the Holy Ghost as an agent, or enabler, so that a virgin could give birth to his Son. The specifics are beyond our knowledge and possibly our comprehension.
htt ...[text shortened]... t sounds like a load of rubbish, but so does most Christian doctrine regarding "virgin birth".
"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost. He is the Son of the Eternal Father." (Benson, Come unto Christ, p. 4.)
http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/christ/benson_teachings.htm
13 Sep 05
1 edit
Originally posted by lucifershammerFAQ - link to accusatory questions - link to Doctrine and Principles - answer to question 5 "Was Mary a Virgin" (short answer - Yup).
Give the specific page, please.
"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy G ...[text shortened]... Come unto Christ, p. 4.)
http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/christ/benson_teachings.htm
13 Sep 05
Originally posted by no1marauderThanks for the link.
FAQ - link to accusatory questions - link to Doctrine and Principles - answer to question 5 "Was Mary a Virgin" (short answer - Yup).
From a Trinitarian perspective (and even a Unitarian one where the Holy Spirit is viewed as the "power" of the Father), the term "conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit" would be essentially equivalent to "conceived by the power of the Father". From a Mormon perspective, of course, the two are not equivalent.
The Mormon doctrine of Jesus' conception seems to involve two divine agents - Elohim as the Father and primary agent; and the Holy Ghost as some kind of enabler and secondary agent. It seems to me that the constant emphasis on "overshadowing" by the Holy Ghost of Mary suggests that the Holy Spirit may have played a role that was more psychological (in terms of orienting Mary) than physical - but perhaps it just about gets past Article (3).
13 Sep 05
Originally posted by lucifershammerAll of this is quibbling, LH. True or not: Mormons and the LDS, or Jehovah's Witness, consider Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour? If yes, they are Christians, period.
Thanks for the link.
From a Trinitarian perspective (and even a Unitarian one where the Holy Spirit is viewed as the "power" of the Father), the term "conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit" would be essentially equivalent to "conceived by the power of the Father". From a Mormon perspective, of course, the two are not equivalent.
The Mo ...[text shortened]... al (in terms of orienting Mary) than physical - but perhaps it just about gets past Article (3).
14 Sep 05
Originally posted by David CPerhaps this will help, the title of the book I have next to my King James Bible, "The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ." Or maybe the name of the church: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." Or maybe this from the inside title page, "...Which is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the convenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever--and also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations--and now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ."
All of this is quibbling, LH. True or not: Mormons and the LDS, or Jehovah's Witness, consider Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour? If yes, they are Christians, period.
Or, from the Introduction, "The crowning event recorded in the Book of Mormon is the personal ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ among the Nephites soon after his resurrection. It puts forth the doctrines of the gospel, outlines the plan of salvation, and tells men what they must do to gain peace in this life and eternal salvation in the life to come."
Or, from later in that same Introduction, "We invite all men everywhere to read the Book of Mormon... Those who gain this divine witness from the Holy Spirit will also come to know by the same power that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, that Joseph Smith is his revelator and prophet in these last days, and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord's kingdom once again established on the earth, preparatory to teh second coming of the Messiah."
I'll let you draw your own conclusions.
14 Sep 05
Originally posted by echeceroSorry, not "Christian" enough for Lucifershammer and RBHILL. Of course, Lucifershammer being a Roman Catholic isn't a "Christian" either according to RBHILL.
Perhaps this will help, the title of the book I have next to my King James Bible, "The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ." Or maybe the name of the church: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." Or maybe this from the inside title page, "...Which is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord ...[text shortened]... , preparatory to teh second coming of the Messiah."
I'll let you draw your own conclusions.