Originally posted by jaywillWell the problem with this thought of ones before Jesus came to earth such a Noah, Moses, etc, never knew anything about a heavenly resurrection at all. And Jesus never said anything about the faithful men of old going to heaven. If you can show me that thought in the Bible, I'll take a look at it.Thanks. So are they the same ones as the anointed or the chosens ones that Jesus hand picked the beginning of when he was here?
Galveston, sorry to say, but you are not paying close attention.
Do you remember that I said that this group of overcomers was from both the Old Testament age and the New Testament age ?
If they inc ...[text shortened]... come with Christ from heaven. They had to previously go up there. Right ?
Originally posted by jaywill"Some overcomers are following Christ as He descends from Heaven before the battle of Armegeddon. Right ?"Thanks. So are they the same ones as the anointed or the chosens ones that Jesus hand picked the beginning of when he was here?
Galveston, sorry to say, but you are not paying close attention.
Do you remember that I said that this group of overcomers was from both the Old Testament age and the New Testament age ?
If they inc ...[text shortened]... come with Christ from heaven. They had to previously go up there. Right ?
Yes it is the angels that will be with Jesus during armegeddon. Rev 7:1
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Originally posted by galveston75
"Some overcomers are following Christ as He descends from Heaven before the battle of Armegeddon. Right ?"
Yes it is the angels that will be with Jesus during armegeddon. Rev 7:1
Yes it is the angels that will be with Jesus during armegeddon. Rev 7:1
The four angels standing at the four corners of the earth in Rev. 7:1,2 are completely different from the army accompanying Christ in Rev. 19:14.
Now the proofs:
The armies coming with Christ have armor. The armor for battle is symbolic of their righteous living -
" And the armies which are in heaven followed Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean." (v.14)
The white linen is exactly the same garments that they possess for the marriage supper of the Lamb in verse 8 -
"And I heard a voice of a great multitude ... Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and exult, and let us give glory to Him, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready; And it was given to her that she should be clothed in FINE LINEN, BRIGHT and CLEAN; for the fine linen is the righteousnesses [SIC] of the saints." (See Rev. 19:5-8)
The righteousness behavior or the righteousness deeds of the saints, (ie. RIGHTEOUSNESSES [SIC]) is both the WEDDING garment and the BATTLE garment.
I do not have time to devlope this as I would like. And people with Watchtower problems are very stubborn.
The botton line is that the Wife or Bride that is at the marriage feast of the Lamb are HUMAN beings. And they have been qualified to this enjoyment because they have prepared themselves with righteous living.
Then this righteness from their living also quaifies them to accompany Christ as His army. In both cases they are clothed in:
verse 8 - clothed in fine linen, bright and clean and clean = the wedding garment of saints.
verse 14 - dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
The righteous living that qualifies the human saints to the wedding feast is also what qualifies the same group to accompany Christ as His army.
In Revelation 7 there is nothing about the angels coming. It simply says that they are THERE holding back calamities of a natural sort BEFORE the great tribulation.
In Revelation 19 you have Christ arriving from Heaven with an army of human saints who have just left the wedding feast. This is at the END of the great tribulation.
So Jude's prophesy hold true that Christ is seen coming down with myriads of overcoming and victorious human saints -
"And Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied also of these, saying, Behold, the Lord came with myriads of His saints." (Jude 14)
Some saints will be resurrected and raptured and then come down accompanying Christ as myriads. The proto Wife and Bride is also the accompanying army.
This is reward to the overcomers.
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Originally posted by jaywillWell yes we are stubborn as we know we have the truth and I could say your stubborn too but I'm not going there.Yes it is the angels that will be with Jesus during armegeddon. Rev 7:1
The four angels standing at the four corners of the earth in [b]Rev. 7:1,2 are completely different from the army accompanying Christ in Rev. 19:14.
Now the proofs:
The armies coming with Christ have armor. The armor for battle is symboli oto Wife and Bride is also the accompanying army.
This is reward to the overcomers.[/b]
But through out the entire Bible whenever the word army is speaking about the heavens, it is always referring to the angels. No mention at all that there is another army of different individuals.
Jesus used the angels as the Bible cleary explains to cast Satan and his demons out of heaven and this will be the same angels he uses to cleanse the earth of all evil and abyss Satan.
The beings you are confusing them with are the anointed or chosen ones or the 144,000.
The only reason they are going to heaven is to rule as Kings and Judges with Jesus. There is not one scripture that says they will also be in an army as soldiers.
The spiritual heavens are also the “proper dwelling place” of God’s spirit sons. (Jude 6; Ge 28:12, 13; Mt 18:10; 24:36) The expression “army of the heavens,” often applied to the stellar creation, sometimes describes these angelic sons of God. (1Ki 22:19; compare Ps 103:20, 21; Da 7:10; Lu 2:13; Re 19:14.) So, too, “the heavens” are personified as representing this angelic organization, “the congregation of the holy ones.”—Ps 89:5-7; compare Lu 15:7, 10; Re 12:12.
This expression, found 283 times, with variations, in the Scriptures, translates the Hebrew Yehowah tsevaohth;. The prophetic books, particularly Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Zechariah, contain by far the majority of its occurrences. Paul and James, quoting from or alluding to the prophecies, used the expression (transliterated into Greek) in their writings.—Ro 9:29; Jas 5:4; compare Isa 1:9.
The Hebrew word tsava (singular; plural, tsevaohth) basically means a literal army of soldiers, or combat forces, as at Genesis 21:22; Deuteronomy 20:9, and many other texts. However, the term is also used in a figurative sense as in “the heavens and the earth and all their army,” or “the sun and the moon and the stars, all the army of the heavens.” (Ge 2:1; De 4:19) The plural form (tsevaohth) is employed a number of times as applying to the Israelite forces, as at Exodus 6:26; 7:4; Numbers 33:1; Psalms 44:9; 60:10. Some scholars believe that the “armies” in the expression “Jehovah of armies” include not only the angelic forces but also the Israelite army and the inanimate heavenly bodies. However, it appears that the “armies” signified are primarily, if not exclusively, the angelic forces.
When Joshua saw an angelic visitor near Jericho and asked him if he was for Israel or for the enemy side, the reply was, “No, but I—as prince of the army of Jehovah I have now come.” (Jos 5:13-15) The prophet Micaiah told Kings Ahab and Jehoshaphat, “I certainly see Jehovah sitting upon his throne and all the army of the heavens standing by him, to his right and to his left,” clearly referring to Jehovah’s spirit sons. (1Ki 22:19-21) The use of the plural form in “Jehovah of armies” is appropriate, inasmuch as the angelic forces are described not only in divisions of cherubs, seraphs, and angels (Isa 6:2, 3; Ge 3:24; Re 5:11) but also as forming organized groups, so that Jesus Christ could speak of having “more than twelve legions of angels” available at his call. (Mt 26:53) In Hezekiah’s plea to Jehovah for help he called him “Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, sitting upon the cherubs,” evidently alluding to the ark of the covenant and the cherub figures on its cover, symbolizing Jehovah’s heavenly throne. (Isa 37:16; compare 1Sa 4:4; 2Sa 6:2.) Elisha’s fearful servant was reassured by a miraculous vision in which he saw the mountains around the besieged city of Elisha’s residence “full of horses and war chariots of fire,” part of Jehovah’s angelic hosts.—2Ki 6:15-17.
The expression “Jehovah of armies” thus conveys the sense of power, the power held by the Sovereign Ruler of the universe, who has at his command vast forces of spirit creatures. (Ps 103:20, 21; 148:1, 2; Isa 1:24; Jer 32:17, 18) It thus commands deep respect and awe, while at the same time being a source of comfort and encouragement to Jehovah’s servants. David, alone and unaided by any earthly military force, challenged the formidable Philistine Goliath in “the name of Jehovah of armies, the God of the battle lines of Israel.” (1Sa 17:45) Not only in times of literal battle but also in all other trialsome situations or occasions of importance God’s people as a whole and as individuals could take courage and hope from recognizing the majesty of Jehovah’s sovereign position, reflected in his control over the mighty forces serving from his heavenly courts. (1Sa 1:9-11; 2Sa 6:18; 7:25-29) The use of the expression “Jehovah of armies” by the prophets supplied yet one more reason for those hearing the prophecies to be certain of their fulfillment.
Notice that "angels" are used all throughout Revelation.
presents Revelation to John (Re 1:1): re 16
angels of seven congregations (Re 1-3): re 28-29, 54-55, 136; w88 12/15 11; it-2 1052; w87 8/1 17-18
four cherubs attending Jehovah’s throne (Re 4:6-8): re 80-81, 89-90, 93, 95-96, 218-219, 273-274; it-1 790-791
four hold back winds (Re 7:1): w07 12/15 16; re 113-115; w93 1/1 6; it-2 512, 1186; w87 12/15 7
angel from the sunrising (Re 7:2): re 115
angel with incense vessel (Re 8:3-5): re 129-131
seven blow trumpets (Re 8-11): re 132-177; w90 4/1 31; w88 12/15 12-14
angel of abyss (Re 9:11): re 143, 148; it-1 12, 126; it-2 149
four untied (Re 9:14, 15): re 148-151; w88 12/15 13
angel with rainbow (Re 10:1): re 155-160; w88 10/15 14; w88 12/15 13; it-2 731
angel in midheaven (Re 14:6): re 204-205; w88 12/15 20; w87 5/15 12
second angel (Re 14:8): re 205-209; w88 12/15 20-21
third angel (Re 14:9-12): re 209-211
fourth angel (Re 14:15): re 211-212
fifth angel (Re 14:17, 19): re 212-214
sixth angel (Re 14:18): re 212
seven pour out bowls (Re 15, 16): re 215-234
shows judgment on great harlot (Re 17:1): re 235
angel with great authority (Re 18:1, 2): re 259-260
strong angel (Re 18:21): re 269-270
refuses worship (Re 19:10): re 278; it-2 524
angel standing in the sun (Re 19:17): re 284-285
binds dragon (Re 20:1-3): re 287-288; w91 3/1 31
shows New Jerusalem (Re 21:9–22:9): re 305-314
twelve at gates (Re 21:12): re 306, 317
refuses worship (Re 22:8, 9): re 314; w99 8/1 14; it-2 524
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The army that accompanies Jesus Christ is an army of resurrected and/ or raptured overcoming redeemed PEOPLE.
The proofs I have given I stand by. And I add one more - Revelation 17:14
"These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him, the called and chosen and faithful, will also overcome them."
The words on italics are supplied. But they bring out the meaning of the Greek. The ones who are "WITH HIM" are overcoming BELIEVERS - those who were "CALLED and CHOSEN and FAITHFUL".
These are ovecoming saints not angels. The phrase "called and chosen and faithful" is particular.
They were not ONLY called. Many are called few are chosen.
They are not only called and chosen.
They have ADDED to this their own FAITHFULNESS. Therefore they are "called AND chosen AND FAITHFUL".
If Watchtower wants to teach that these are called and chosen and faithful angelic beings, let them believe that error.
The Scripture here refers to those believers who accompany Christ and are with Him - called and chosen and to this they have added faithful.
Galveston, believe as you wish.
I have no doubt that those WITH Christ in Revelation 17:14 and in Revelation 19:7,8 and 14 are from His redeemed human saints.
You might as well be arguing that Gideon's army of 300 were angels.
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Originally posted by jaywilljc: okay dudes, listen up. even though i'm supposed to be god and can do anything with a snap of my fingers, i'm going off to fight a physical war because, well, it's more dramatic; there will be 'splosions, bullets, blood, guts and gore everywhere. it will be fantastic!
The army that accompanies Jesus Christ is an army of resurrected and/ or raptured overcoming redeemed PEOPLE.
The proofs I have given I stand by. And I add one more - [b]Revelation 17:14
"These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him, the called and c man saints.
You might as well be arguing that Gideon's army of 300 were angels.
i need some volunteers. who's with me? okay, wow, cool, but that's more than i need. okay, everyone whose last names begin with a-m, you're with me. suit up, lock and load. the rest of you can go about your business.
Originally posted by VoidSpiritThose that go to war against Him will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming according to the Holy Bible. What do you think about that for real power? HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!
jc: okay dudes, listen up. even though i'm supposed to be god and can do anything with a snap of my fingers, i'm going off to fight a physical war because, well, it's more dramatic; there will be 'splosions, bullets, blood, guts and gore everywhere. it will be fantastic!
i need some volunteers. who's with me? okay, wow, cool, but that's more than i ...[text shortened]... -m, you're with me. suit up, lock and load. the rest of you can go about your business.
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Originally posted by RJHindsYou can see that some people do not understand.
Those that go to war against Him will be destroyed by the brightness of His coming according to the Holy Bible. What do you think about that for real power? HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord!
Of course for glorified saints to accompany Christ to the battle of Armageddon in no way suggests that angels are not also present. This is a false dichotomy.
But a portion of the church as overcomers, Christ brings WITH Him in His descent -
"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose, so also those who have fallen asleep through Jesus, God will bring with Him." ( 1 Thess. 4:14)
Do you believe that "those who have fallen asleep through Jesus" here refers to ANGELIC beings ? I do not. Yet these human believers who have fallen asleep through Jesus, God will bring with Him [Christ].
At least then some portion of the church Christ brings WITH Him in a descent to the earth - " THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST WITH ALL HIS SAINTS " (1 Thess. 3:13) (my emphasis) .
The ones who are coming WITH Him must indeed be with Him coming from wherever He is. Correct ? So some believers who have fallen asleep and are resurrected and raptured would come WITH Him.
First Thess. 3:13 speaks of Christ coming to earth "with all His saints".
First Thess. 4:14 speaks of Christ coming and some who have fallen asleep through Christ, "God will bring with Him".
Revelation 17:14 in speaking of the Battle of Armegeddon "they who are with Him [Christ], the called and chosen and faithful" .
As cynical as VoidSpirit is, this present age will indeed end with a man and his armies PHYSICALLY fighting against God and His Christ.
"These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and they who are with Him ... will also overcome them " .(17:14)
The selected overcomers so rewarded to accompany Christ will be with Him. They are called and chosen and faithful.
Christ wars there by SPEAKING. Perhaps all the believing armies that accompany Him will give a loud "AMEN !!". While I do not know the details of that battle, I do know Christ is accompanied by both angels and His overcoming believers - "And the armies which are in heaven followed Him ..." (Rev. 19:14)
This church age will conclude with Antichrist and his armies physically trying to defeat the descending Jesus Christ to keep hold on the earth. Maybe Antichrist will use modern technology to try to stop the Son of God. He will utterly fail. And the meek shall inherit the earth.
Just let VoidSpirit sleep there. Step over him lying there drunken with unbelief. We just have to step over him and keep moving toward that day. Praise the Lord.
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After all the raptures Christ will set up His judgment seat in the air somewhere close to the vicinity of the earth. He will have the marriage supper of the Lamb. But only after He has made a judgment of the saints as to who is rewarded and who is not.
Then those rewarded will accompany Him from that pavillion in the air to the battle of Armegeddon where a man (Antichrist), and his armies, will physcially attempt to fight against God.
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But through out the entire Bible whenever the word army is speaking about the heavens, it is always referring to the angels. No mention at all that there is another army of different individuals.
The blanket generalization should not be made overbroad.
One of the functions of the Wife of Christ as His church is to be also a fighting corporote warrior in spiritual war. To the church in Ephesus Paul exhorts -
"Finally, be empowered in the Lord and in the might of His strength. Put on the whole armor of God that you may be able to stand against the strategems of the devil, For our wrestling is not against blood and flesh but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenlies." (Eph. 6:10=12)
1.) This passage follows the description of the Chrisian church as the Wife of Christ for love -(Eph. 5:22-33) . So the relationship of the church is not only Wife to Husband as lovers but a cooperative Warrior for
our battling against spiritual forces in the heavenly realms - "world rulers of this darkness".
2.) Paul does not say that the wrestling belongs only to the angels. Man has been infested with the Satanic nature. So the saved ones allowing Christ to spread within their being is also their defeating these evil spiritual forces. It is not only the wrestling of angels in heaven. It is the wrestling of human saints on earth - "For OUR wrestling is not against flesh and blood, ... but against spiritual forces in the heavenlies."
3.) The church is exhorted to put on spiritual armor - "Therefore take up the whole armor of God that you may be able to withstand in the evil day ..."
Paul mentions - "loins" girded with truth (v.14), feet shod with the gospel of peace (v.15), a shield of faith (v.16), a helmet of salvation (v.17), a sword of the Spirit, which Spirit is the word of God (v.17), prayer and petition in the spiritual warfare (v.18).
Do not tell me that this is not an army. This army, the corporate lover and Wife of Christ, battles God's enemy while on earth. And some prevailing overcomers will be raptured and will facilitate in battling Satan down to the earth.
The army of angels that Galveston argues about are the SERVANTS of those human beings who are to inherit salvation.
"Are they [angels] not all ministering spirits, sent forth for SERVICE for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation ? (Hebrews 1:14)
The rapture of the Manchild of overcoming saints TRIGGERS the good angels to drive down to the earth the bad angels. This is the SERVICE of the good angels to the overcoming church.
"And she brought forth a son, a man-child who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne." (Rev. 12:5)
"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels went to war with the dragon. And the dragon warred and his angels. And they did not prevail, neither was their place found any longer in heaven. " (v.8)
The saints who are raptured, who compose the Manchild, may say "Satan, what are you doing up here ? We defeated you through the empowerment of Christ while we were on the earth. Now we are raptured to heaven and the throne of God. We will not tolerate you to be here. We command you in the name of Jesus Christ to get out of the heavens."
Upon this kind of command, Michael and the good angels, who are ministering spirits sent forth for SERVICE to the human saints, will then do their angelic warring to drive Satan out from the heavenly realms. It is emphatically the resurrection and rapture of the Manchild which is the cause of the good angels prevailing to drive Satan down to the earth.
"And the great dragon was cast down, the ancient serpent, he who is called the Devil and Satan, he who deceives the whole inhabited earth; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him." (v.9)
The corporate manchild will give the order. And Michael and the good angels will war. They are the ministering spirits for the SERVICE of the saints.
4.) I challenge Galveston to show me one word in EITHER Revelation 7 about 144,000 or Revelation 14 about 144,000 which mentions the word governing, or kings, or ruling at all.
That insertion of Watchtower that in either Revelation 7 or Revlation 14 there is something uttered about 144,000 ruling is pure speculation added to the text.
5.) The emphasis of the 144,000 in Revelation 7 is the preservation of a remnant of JEWS from the 12 tribes. God promises at the end of this age to reserve 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel through the great tribulation. This is God's faithfulness that His Israel nation has not fully cast away.
6.) The 144,000 in Revelation 14 are mainly FIRSTFRUITS for the Father's satisfaction. Just as the early fruits were brought into the temple in the Old Testament. Nothing is explicitly written in either chapter 7 or 14 about either group of 144,000 reigning or ruling.
I am not saying they may not. I am saying nothing is mentioned about that. And in the rapture of the Manchild where shepherding strongly the nations IS mentioned, no number is mentioned in connection to these co-kings of Christ.
Jesus used the angels as the Bible cleary explains to cast Satan and his demons out of heaven and this will be the same angels he uses to cleanse the earth of all evil and abyss Satan.
What you seem to miss is that the good angels are the ministering and SERVING spirits on behalf of the redeemed of God.
Christ is not only coming for sons in glory. Christ is LEADING many sons into glory as the Firstborn Son of God -
"For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and through whom are all things, in leading many sons into glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through suffering." (Hebrews 2:10)
All things are for the Godman Christ.
All things were through the Godman Christ.
The Godman Christ, being made like us, is leading many sons into the glorious expression of the Divne Being.
He comes again as the FIRSTBORN in resurrection - "And when He brings again the Firstborn into the inhabited earth, He says, And let all the angels of God worship Him." (Hebrews 1:6)
The beings you are confusing them with are the anointed or chosen ones or the 144,000.
It doesn't make any difference even if this is so. They are still an army of redeemed humans accompanying Christ as His army out from Heaven in chapter 19.
You are saying any army from heaven must be angels. But Christ's army can be composed of both the angels as ministering spirits for service of the church and the overcomers from the church - "the called and chosen and faithful"
It does nothing for your theory of "only angelic armies of God exist" to argue that the accompanying army is the 144,000 PEOPLE. Even if that is true, it is still an army of human SAINTS.
The only reason they are going to heaven is to rule as Kings and Judges with Jesus. There is not one scripture that says they will also be in an army as soldiers.
There is no Scripture passage in either Revelation 7 or Revelation 14 explicitedly mentioning JUDGING or RULING of either group of 144,000.
Produce it.
Lastly, the fighting of the army in Revelation 19 is also against HUMAN BEINGS because Antichrist and his armies consist of human beings.
While details I cannot provide, it is obvious that in the spiritual war eventually you have SAVED humans pitted with Christ against rebellious humans under Antichrist. He will slay this beast with the brightness of His coming and His speaking.
The accompanying army may simply praise and Amen Him on in victory.
Originally posted by jaywillLuke 22:29-30But through out the entire Bible whenever the word army is speaking about the heavens, it is always referring to the angels. No mention at all that there is another army of different individuals.
The blanket generalization should not be made overbroad.
One of the functions of the Wife of Christ as His church is to be also a fightin ...[text shortened]... accompanying army may simply praise and Amen Him on in victory.
New Living Translation (NLT)
29 And just as my Father has granted me a Kingdom, I now grant you the right 30 to eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom. And you will sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Revelation 20:4
New Living Translation (NLT)
4 Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Matthew 19:28
New Living Translation (NLT)
28 Jesus replied, “I assure you that when the world is made new[a] and the Son of Man[b] sits upon his glorious throne, you who have been my followers will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Is that enough? No mention at all of these being a part of an army....
Originally posted by jaywillah, he will set up an orbital base then. when do you think the mother spaceship called new jerusalem will land?
After all the raptures Christ will set up His judgment seat in the air somewhere close to the vicinity of the earth. He will have the marriage supper of the Lamb. But only after He has made a judgment of the saints as to who is rewarded and who is not.
Then those rewarded will accompany Him from that pavillion in the air to the battle of Armegeddon where a man (Antichrist), and his armies, will physcially attempt to fight against God.
do you think it will be wrong for us to resist this hypothetical alien invasion of our planet?
those who join with the aliens will be considered traitors.
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Originally posted by jaywillso those who have sworn an allegiance to him will be beamed up to the mother ship in transporter devices where some of them will be selected to join christ's army and invade earth and these traitors will assist in the aliens in the destruction of earth's combined defense forces and their treachery will be rewarded after the projected victory.
After all the raptures Christ will set up His judgment seat in the air somewhere close to the vicinity of the earth. He will have the marriage supper of the Lamb. But only after He has made a judgment of the saints as to who is rewarded and who is not.
Then those rewarded will accompany Him from that pavillion in the air to the battle of Armegeddon where a man (Antichrist), and his armies, will physcially attempt to fight against God.