Originally posted by galveston75
Luke 22:29-30
New Living Translation (NLT)

29 And just as my Father has granted me a Kingdom, I now grant you the right 30 to eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom. And you will sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


Revelation 20:4
New Living Translation (NLT)

4 Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been giv ...[text shortened]... elve tribes of Israel.

Is that enough? No mention at all of these being a part of an army....

Luke 22:29-30
New Living Translation (NLT)

29 And just as my Father has granted me a Kingdom, I now grant you the right 30 to eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom. And you will sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

So what ?
Did I say that in every passage related to the millennial kingdom an army HAS to be mentioned ?

Revelation 20:4
New Living Translation (NLT)

4 Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

So what again ?
Did I say that in every passage related to the millennial kingdom an army HAS to be mentioned ?

Matthew 19:28
New Living Translation (NLT)

28 Jesus replied, “I assure you that when the world is made new[a] and the Son of Man sits upon his glorious throne, you who have been my followers will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Three strikes. You're out.
So what? All three of these are wonderfully related passages which make no explicit mention of army.

Spiritual warfare is really for the more mature. And the Apostle Paul and his co-workers talked about "the weapons of OUR warfare".

"For though we walk in flesh, we do not WAR according to flesh; For the weopons of our WARFARE are not fleshly but powerful before God for the overthrowing of strongholds, As we overthrow reasonings and every high thing rising up against the knowledge of God, and take captive every thought to the obedience of Christ." (2 Cor. 10:4,5)

How can Paul speak of "OUR WARFARE" (2 Cor. 10:4,5) and the spiritual "WEAPONS OF OUR WARFARE" and he not have the concept that he is in an army ?

As Christ has many varied aspects to Him, so also the church of Christ has many varied aspects to her. One of those many varied aspects is that she is a corporate WARRIOR. And the mature, and the co-workers of the apostles have this realization that they are also in a battle, in a war.

In the book of Hebrews you have Christ compared to, and shown greater than "angels," "Moses," "Melchisedec," "Aaron," and "JOSHUA". Christ, in Hebrews is the greater Joshua leading the army of Jehovah into God's rest. Christ is the reality of Joshua leading many sons into glory. This has a decided military aspect as an army.

The very name Jesus is the Greek version of Joshua. And Joshua was a general.

Now appreciate anyone's concern that we would not take up arms or guns and carry out another Crusades because we are Christ's army. I understand those hesitations. However, we cannot deny the spiritual teaching of the New Testament because of such fears of excess or misunderstanding of the past.

One of the aspects of the church is that she needs to be girded for spiritual warfare as an army. If this stumbles you then perhaps you are on the wrong side fighting against Christ rather than with Christ.

In the above attempted rebuttal all you have done is said - "Well, I can show you lots of verses where army is not mentioned." It is a pure strawman argument.

As the Christians fight to turn themelves over to the Holy Spirit, they are simultaneously fighting against the world rulers of this darkness. As they grow in the divine life they are simultaneously fighting to spiritual battle to recover the earth. And one day SOME of the saints will be resurrected, raptured, and rewarded to accompany Christ as His armies.

Now we do not fight men. For His kingdom is not of this world. But when this announcement is made -

"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ, and He will reign forever and ever." (Rev. 11:15)

Then at that time His servants WILL fight - "And the armies which are in heaven followed Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean" (Rev. 19:14)

Once again, before this we were told that " the fine linen is the righteousnesses [sic] of the saints" (Rev. 19:8)

It is not the righteousnesses of the angelic beings in this case. It is the righteous deeds of the human saints who constitute the Wife of the Lamb (v.7) The angels do not compose the Wife of the Redeeming Lamb. It is forgiven sinners among HUMAN BEINGS who constitute the Wife of the Lamb. And in Revelation 19 her wedding garment is ALSO her fighting arrayment.

Is that enough? No mention at all of these being a part of an army....

Three weak and failed strawman arguments Galveston. I'm sorry.

Originally posted by jaywill

Luke 22:29-30
New Living Translation (NLT)

29 And just as my Father has granted me a Kingdom, I now grant you the right 30 to eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom. And you will sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

So what ?
Did I say that in every passage related to the millennial kingdom an [b]army[/b ...[text shortened]...
Three weak and failed strawman arguments Galveston. I'm sorry.

You told me to prove the proof of them being Judges, did you not? So now that I did, it shows you don't know as much as you claim. So that in turn shows you are not correct in all things in the Bible.
So you call us stubborn?
But it's all good. I know what the Bible says in this reguard. NO where does it say the (annointed or chosen ones or the little flock or 144,000) are warriors.
But yet all the sriptures in Revelation speak of angels in many kinds of warrior positions and they were used to oust Satan and the demons out of heaven. So by adding up all the proof, the picture is clear who will be beside Jesus when he rids the earth of all wickedness.

Revelation chapter 19 describes how Jehovah will accomplish all of this.

It is by having his King Jesus Christ go into action with, as verse 14 says, “the armies that were in heaven” following him. Then verses 17 and 18 say: “I saw also an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice and said to all the birds that fly in midheaven: ‘Come here, be gathered together to the great evening meal of God, that you may eat the fleshy parts of kings and the fleshy parts of military commanders and the fleshy parts of strong men and the fleshy parts of horses and of those seated upon them, and the fleshy parts of all, of freemen as well as of slaves and of small ones and great.” And verses 19 to 21 describe the destruction of all human institutions because they refused to listen when God spoke through his earthly messengers.


Matthew 25:31 said that “all the angels” would be with him. How many might that be? Revelation 5:11 says: “I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels around the throne [of God] . . . and the number of them was myriads of myriads.” A myriad is 10,000. One myriad times one myriad is 10,000 times 10,000, a total of 100 million angels! Yet, Revelation speaks in the plural, of “myriads of myriads” of angels serving God. That is hundreds of millions, perhaps billions or more. Under Christ’s direction, these spirit creatures are assisting God’s representatives on earth in separating mankind into two groups, one for “everlasting cutting-off,” the other for “everlasting life.”—Matthew 25:46; see also Matthew 13:41, 42.

Angels will serve as God’s executional forces in the near future. Very soon now, Jesus will come “with his powerful angels in a flaming fire.” Their mission will be to bring “vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.” (2 Thessalonians 1:7, 8) What an effect this action will have on mankind! Those who refuse to respond to the good news of God’s Kingdom now being declared earth wide will suffer destruction. Only those who seek Jehovah, righteousness, and meekness will be “concealed in the day of Jehovah’s anger” and be unharmed.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
ah, he will set up an orbital base then. when do you think the mother spaceship called new jerusalem will land?

do you think it will be wrong for us to resist this hypothetical alien invasion of our planet?
those who join with the aliens will be considered traitors.

ah, he will set up an orbital base then. when do you think the mother spaceship called new jerusalem will land?

do you think it will be wrong for us to resist this hypothetical alien invasion of our planet?
those who join with the aliens will be considered traitors.

The alien invader is Satan and his rebellion. You have things twisted around.

Satan to Christ the Son of God -

"Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to Him, All these will I give You if You will fall down and worship me.

Then Jesus said to him, Go away, satan! For it is written, "You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only shall you serve." Then the devil left Him, and behold, angels came and ministered to Him." (Matt. 4:8-11)

The Son of God never disputed that all the kingdoms of the world had become Satan's property. But Christ came to recover the earth for the man that God wants to have His image and dominion - a God redeemed and God saturated man.

Antichrist will be the fool who will succumb to Satan's temptation, that he have all the world in exchange for worshipping Satan. Both Satan and his Antichrist will go into the eternal fire. The enemies of God following Satan will be crushed in His second coming. And the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of God as the waters cover the sea.

And you're going to miss all the enjoyment of that world unless you repent to be saved by Christ.

Originally posted by galveston75
You told me to prove the proof of them being Judges, did you not? So now that I did, it shows you don't know as much as you claim. So that in turn shows you are not correct in all things in the Bible.
So you call us stubborn?
But it's all good. I know what the Bible says in this reguard. NO where does it say the (annointed or chosen ones or the litt ...[text shortened]... righteousness, and meekness will be “concealed in the day of Jehovah’s anger” and be unharmed.

You told me to prove the proof of them being Judges, did you not? So now that I did, it shows you don't know as much as you claim. So that in turn shows you are not correct in all things in the Bible.

What I SAID was show me those words in the chapters which EXPLICITLY mention 144,000.

That would be Revelation 7 and Revelation 14. Of course you and I can find references plenty about reigning, or co-ruling with Christ. I ALREADY listed some.

Two chapters mention 144,000 - Rev. 7 and Rev 14. Neither mention co-ruling. You and Watchtower simply transfer all such references to necessarily MEAN the 144,000.

Originally posted by galveston75
You told me to prove the proof of them being Judges, did you not? So now that I did, it shows you don't know as much as you claim. So that in turn shows you are not correct in all things in the Bible.
So you call us stubborn?
But it's all good. I know what the Bible says in this reguard. NO where does it say the (annointed or chosen ones or the litt ...[text shortened]... righteousness, and meekness will be “concealed in the day of Jehovah’s anger” and be unharmed.

Matthew 25:31 said that “all the angels” would be with him. How many might that be? Revelation 5:11 says: “I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels around the throne [of God] . . . and the number of them was myriads of myriads.” A myriad is 10,000. One myriad times one myriad is 10,000 times 10,000, a total of 100 million angels! Yet, Revelation speaks in the plural, of “myriads of myriads” of angels serving God. That is hundreds of millions, perhaps billions or more. Under Christ’s direction, these spirit creatures are assisting God’s representatives on earth in separating mankind into two groups, one for “everlasting cutting-off,” the other for “everlasting life.”—Matthew 25:46; see also Matthew 13:41, 42.

Angels will serve as God’s executional forces in the near future. Very soon now, Jesus will come “with his powerful angels in a flaming fire.” Their mission will be to bring “vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.” (2 Thessalonians 1:7, 8) What an effect this action will have on mankind! Those who refuse to respond to the good news of God’s Kingdom now being declared earth wide will suffer destruction. Only those who seek Jehovah, righteousness, and meekness will be “concealed in the day of Jehovah’s anger” and be unharmed.

All this does not mean that the armies which follow the Lord in Revelation 19 cannot consist of saints among the churching people.

A false dichotomy of strictly either / or is not the answer. The armies in Revelation 19 includes those invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb - the Wife ( at least in proto), a remnant of overcomers.

They are not angels. They are called and chosen and faithful among redeemed human sinners.

Originally posted by jaywill
[quote] Matthew 25:31 said that “all the angels” would be with him. How many might that be? Revelation 5:11 says: “I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels around the throne [of God] . . . and the number of them was myriads of myriads.” A myriad is 10,000. One myriad times one myriad is 10,000 times 10,000, a total of 100 million angels! Yet, Revelation spe ...[text shortened]... .

They are not angels. They are called and chosen and faithful among redeemed human sinners.

He is too indoctrinated by the Watchtower to pay attention to the testimony of the Holy Bible.

Originally posted by RJHinds
He is too indoctrinated by the Watchtower to pay attention to the testimony of the Holy Bible.

Another indication that the conformed and glorified saints are formed into an army is Revelation 20:8,9.

This is AFTER the 1,000 year millennial kingdom. As you know Satan has been bound for 1,000 years (Rev. 20:2,3,7). But for some reason he is released from his prison.

"And will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them togther for war, Their number is like the sand of the sea.

And they went up upon the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city ..." (Rev. 20:8,8)

The "camp of the saints" is the lodging place of the overcoming believers, who composed the heavenly armies in 19:14 camping on the earth. The beloved city is Jerusalem, the dwelling place of the remnant of Israel.

The phrase "the camp of the saints" refers not to camping angels but the overcoming saints who along with the remnant of Israel are God's faithful people on earth in the millennium. These stand stand with God and for God. At the end of the millennium, satan will instigate the last rebellion with those whom he can deceive to be rebellious from mankind. They are gathered from the uttermost parts of the earth.

They seek to attack Jerusalem and the camp of the saints nearby. They will be consumed in defeat by fire from heaven (v.9) .

Originally posted by jaywill
Another indication that the conformed and glorified saints are formed into an army is [b]Revelation 20:8,9.

This is AFTER the 1,000 year millennial kingdom. As you know Satan has been bound for 1,000 years (Rev. 20:2,3,7). But for some reason he is released from his prison.

"And will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four ...[text shortened]... of the saints nearby. They will be consumed in defeat by fire from heaven [b](v.9) .[/b]

You seriously don't know why Satan will be released for a short time after the 1000 years?
Why not? Why do you not understand that?

Originally posted by jaywill
[quote] Matthew 25:31 said that “all the angels” would be with him. How many might that be? Revelation 5:11 says: “I saw, and I heard a voice of many angels around the throne [of God] . . . and the number of them was myriads of myriads.” A myriad is 10,000. One myriad times one myriad is 10,000 times 10,000, a total of 100 million angels! Yet, Revelation spe ...[text shortened]... .

They are not angels. They are called and chosen and faithful among redeemed human sinners.

But It does NOT say these Judges will fight.... NO WHERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by galveston75
You seriously don't know why Satan will be released for a short time after the 1000 years?
Why not? Why do you not understand that?

You seriously don't know why Satan will be released for a short time after the 1000 years?
Why not? Why do you not understand that?

Hold your horses. I understand that he still has some usefulness to God in exposing the remnants of rebellion in mankind still left.

It is not too important to my main point. This is a side matter to the armies which are in heaven being of the overcoming redeemed saints of God.

Originally posted by galveston75
But It does NOT say these Judges will fight.... NO WHERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But It does NOT say these Judges will fight.... NO WHERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This also is not important to me. That it does not mention fighting does not make "the armies that are in heaven" in chapter 19 only angels.

Now let's move on. There is much more in Rev. 12.

Originally posted by jaywill

ah, he will set up an orbital base then. when do you think the mother spaceship called new jerusalem will land?

do you think it will be wrong for us to resist this hypothetical alien invasion of our planet?
those who join with the aliens will be considered traitors.

The alien invader is Satan and his rebellion. You have things tw ...[text shortened]... re going to miss all the enjoyment of that world unless you repent to be saved by Christ.

that's not a correct interpretation. according to your view, satan is already here and christ will come to earth from somewhere else bringing his army. that's an extra-terrestrial invasion.

and i doubt i'll miss anything. i'm a spirit formless and void, a master of my own destiny.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
that's not a correct interpretation. according to your view, satan is already here and christ will come to earth from somewhere else bringing his army. that's an extra-terrestrial invasion.

and i doubt i'll miss anything. i'm a spirit formless and void, a master of my own destiny.

that's not a correct interpretation. according to your view, satan is already here and christ will come to earth from somewhere else bringing his army. that's an extra-terrestrial invasion.

You are very eager to:

find fault,
find inconsistancy,
hunt for error,
expose logical fallacy,
notice something justifying dismissal of the Bible,
point out logical problem, etc. etc.

Somtimes, it is good to simply ASK a person for clarification. I know what I have written. And there is no problem with what I explained.

And when it comes to the Word of God, many of us carefully arrive at my understandings.

The usurpation of the earth by Satan is LIKE an extraterrestial invasion.
Forget Hollywood and Sci-Fi for a moment to just see the parallel, if not in ALL respects, in many respects.

The earth was once under his authority. His authority became corrupted. And God created a dusty creature, human beings, to transfer the dominion to them. Satan, in his subtlety arrested it from the hands of this new creature. Satan considers it a continuation of his rule when he was a legitimate deputy authority over the earth.

and i doubt i'll miss anything. i'm a spirit formless and void, a master of my own destiny.

Jesus Christ the Savior, Whom you sometimes mock, loves you just the same. We all come to Him a mess. We all come to Him in great need.

Now, my understanding is that Satan travels back and forth. This is seen in Job. He came to the presence of God from the earth to make accusations against God and Job. He said to God that he had been walking up and down in the earth. He still does something like, appearing before God, blinded by his own lies. The time will come when he will not be able to go back and forth. He will be more restricted.

In the rapture of the Manchild, the trafficing and traveling Satan is limited to no longer be able to appear as the accuser before God in Heaven. He is cast down to be restricted to the earth.

Originally posted by jaywill

But It does NOT say these Judges will fight.... NO WHERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This also is not important to me. That it does not mention fighting does not make [b]"the armies that are in heaven" in chapter 19 only angels.

Now let's move on. There is much more in Rev. 12.[/b]

Well now wait a minute. This is the second or third time you brushed me off and say it really doesn't matter to you? Is that because you have been shown something you can't explain??????
It sure looks like that to me.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
that's not a correct interpretation. according to your view, satan is already here and christ will come to earth from somewhere else bringing his army. that's an extra-terrestrial invasion.

and i doubt i'll miss anything. i'm a spirit formless and void, a master of my own destiny.

So your interpretaion is correct, but yet you can't prove it? Hummmm.
So since the Bible clearly says that no one can go their own interpretations or ideas or thoughts and just go with those but yet you decide to still do that?
If the Bible cleary says we cannot understand the Bible with our own thoughts and interpretations and mental powers, what does that leave as the other choise?