The Four Views of Revelation http://www.web.npa519.com/fourviews.htm
Not my own intellectual property but I sampled this because it best explains the 4 major views
Introduction
That there are differing views on the interpretation of the apocalyptic writings in the book of Revelation is no secret. The plethora of views, however, can be distilled into essentially four main categories. These categories are: the historicist view, the preterist view, the futurist view, and the idealist view. These four views are the subject of this paper.
Historicist View
The historicist view contends that all of the events in the book of Revelation are history – that they were fulfilled either during the reign of Nero (54-68 AD) or Emperor Domitian (81-96 AD). Those who see the book this way claim that it is an inspired forecast of the whole of church history. Those who support this view claim that in Revelation one can find the history of the church from the days of John to the end of the age. The proponents of the historical view claim that the symbols contained in Revelation signify the rise of the papacy, the corruption of the church, and various wars throughout church history (Ryrie 9). Gregg, in his commentary on Revelation, states (35) that one non-negotiable feature of classical historicism is the assertion that the papacy is “Antichrist.” According to Gregg, present-day supporters of historicism have all but vanished, and “hardly any new commentary can be found (today) espousing this view.” Nevertheless, historicism has had its fair share of noteworthy supporters: among them, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli, John Foxe, John Wesley, Charles Finney, C.H. Spurgeon, Matthew Henry, and a host of others. While classical historicism is not in vogue today, it has had some impressive points in its favor. It seems most of these, at least from our vantage point of looking backwards, are a result of favorable coincidences where proponents have successfully been able to align some prophetic events with actual historical occurrences. One such incident, according to Gregg (36) was the alignment of the fifth trumpet of Revelation with the rise of Mohammedanism and of the sixth trumpet with the coming of the Turks. The things described in the Revelation, says Gregg, would surely be an apt description of these great calamities – but prove nothing when taken in the system as a whole.
Preterist View
The second view is known as the Preterist view. The word “preter” comes from Latin, meaning ‘past,’ so this view contends that Revelation is essentially a view of the past. The Preterist viewpoint wants to take seriously the historical interpretation of Revelation by relating it to its original author and audience. Preterists locate the timing of the fulfilling of the prophecies of Revelation in the first century AD just before the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70. Despite the opinion of many that Revelation was written in the 90’s during the reign of Domitian many who hold to this view would argue that the date of the book is rather much earlier during the time of Nero (54-68 AD). Those who support this view see Revelation as having already been fulfilled in the early centuries of the church. The view differs from the historicist in that preterism sees Revelation as a panorama of church history from the apostolic era to the end of the ages. Chapters 5-11 are said to record the church’s victory over Judaism; chapters 12-19, her victory over Pagan Rome, and chapters 20-22, her glory because of these victories (Ryrie 8). The principal criticism of the preterist approach is its heavy dependence on the pre-AD 70 date of writing. While this date has some defense it is not undisputed. Another problem associated with the preterist approach, says Gregg (39) is related to its alleged roots. Critics have traced the origins of preterism to a Jesuit priest named Louis de Alcazar. Thus, some hold to the view that preterism is said to have a disreputable origin and was a Roman Catholic response to Protestantism.
Futurist View
The label “futurist” is derived from the fact that this interpretation sees Revelation from chapter 4 to the end of the book as yet to be fulfilled. If one follows the plain, literal and normal principles of interpretation, one can conclude that most of the book describes what is yet future. The futurist argues that their view can be the only one because of the fact that no judgments in history have ever equaled those described in chapters 6, 8, 9, and 16 (Ryrie 9). The resurrections and judgment described in chapter 20 have not yet occurred. There has been no visible return of Christ as portrayed in chapter 19 of Revelation. The concept of a literal interpretation raises questions for some since the book obviously contains symbols. Futurists do not deny the presence of symbols in the book, nor do they claim to be able to explain every detail with certainty. They do insist however, that the principal of literal interpretation be followed consistently throughout the book. This view sees the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments as prefiguring the second coming of Christ. This view of Revelation is supported in the outline provided in the book itself (Revelation 1:19). When the principles of “comparing scripture to scripture” and “letting scripture interpret scripture” are followed, the futurist view seems to emerge as the most credible view when taken in the broad perspective of both the entire Bible, and our perspective of history.
Idealist View
The fourth or idealist view maintains that there are few or no references in Revelation to actual happenings, whether at the time it was written or subsequently. Their approach to Revelation sees the book as a pictorial unfolding of great principles in constant conflict. The book does not actually record events, idealists say, that have been fulfilled or that are going to happen; rather, it merely portrays the struggle between good and evil. Those who hold to this view have been criticized of spiritualizing and allegorizing the text. Those who hold to this view argue that in many of the visions that John saw and in his constant use of the word “like” shows that the reader should not interpret this passage literally. It is the idea that John is trying to convey that is of central importance, they say. In this view the whole book is concerned with ideas and principles. Idealists would argue that the main propositions for this book are: (1) It is an irresistible summons to heroic living. (2) It contains matchless appeals to endurance. (3) It tells us that evil is marked for overthrow in the end. (4) It gives us a new and wonderful picture of Christ, and (5) it reveals to us the fact that history is in the mind of God and in the hand of Christ as the author and reviewer of the moral destines of men (Pate 23). It is amazing that in these propositions the coming of Christ and his kingdom – the central theme in Revelation – are nowhere mentioned.
Conclusion
An honest evaluation of the four views of the book of the Revelation leads to the conclusion that the futurist view aligns most closely with our overall understanding of scripture and events in history as we have observed them. Some see three of the four views, according to Pate (19) in Revelation 1:19. “Write, therefore, what you have seen” (preterist), “What is now,” (idealist), and “What will take place later” (futurist), but I think that is taking an interpretation to an incorrect extreme. Some have argued the main weakness of the futurist view is that it robs the book (of Revelation) of any significance for the early Christians, and indeed all generations up to the last. The opponents to the futuristic view argue that the book really has significance only for the final generation if the events described are all future.
This directly contradicts the introductory verses of Revelation itself, where we read God gives the book to his servants so they will know, (and in knowing, obey) the words of the book. In Revelation 1:3 we read of the blessing God promises to those who will “digest” the book. The blessing comes to those who “read,” “hear,” and “keep” (or obey) the things written in the book. The flow of information (Rev. 1:1) is from God, to Jesus Christ, to John, written down, passed to the seven churches, and through them, to us. So the book clearly is to all of God’s people in every generation.
Marvin Pate, in his Four Views on the Book of Revelation (231) correctly states, I believe, that how one approaches Revelation 1:1 will determine how one concludes at Revelation 22:21. How one sees the opening phrases like “these things,” “will soon take place” and “immediately” will govern one’s subsequent approach.
In the midst of the diversity of opinions, however, we can be sure of one thing: the God Who intervened in history past to provide a Savior through the finished work of Jesus Christ, is the same God Who can be trusted to triumphantly conclude his plan in the future.
Of this we can be certain: Jesus shall reign.
I believe I lean toward futurist view with a slight tinge of idealist view LOL
Manny
Originally posted by galveston75I admit I understand the main gist but the symbolism and all can be a bit hard. You have to take it in context first and foremost. Also take it in light of other scripture and even in historical context.
So you are conceding you know nothing about Revelation yourself right?
Manny
Originally posted by galveston75I did not say that we will not be able to understand any of it. I said we would not be able to understand it completely until it takes place. That means we can have a partial understanding of it before it takes place. Now, do you understand that way of stating it better?
Lol...are you serious? Really? Ok you go ahead and cool it with what this book is teaching us and just float along. How blind can one person be? This is the best yet to come out of your brain. Lol, Lol Lol................
Also you just said this is a "symbolic book of visions" but yet you think this 345 mile high city is real and will sit down on this planet like a borg cube. Oh my gosh!!!!!!!!!!
It seems everyone here has a different take on this as well as the rest of the book of Revelation as a whole.
So a few questions. With so many opinions and thoughts and ideas on what all this means, is it real, is it a parable, is it just strange a vision, is it partially real or some mixture of all these things?
To answer galveston's question directly. Revelation is relelvant both as prophecy of events of the future and for edification for daily Christian life today.
I can expound Rev. 12:1-17 with both aspects which I think is good balanced exegesis.
I could even expound Rev. 12:1-17 so as to benefit the seeking unbeliever in order to help him come to Christ for salvation.
This discussion has seemed to branch out from simply 17 verses to include the entire book of Revelation, its place in the Bible, and the different approaches to it.
Because Revelation is a difficult book I would like to offer some hopefully helpful suggestions in reading it. This advice should be profitable to anyone who comes with an open mind and opened spirit to this difficult book.
1.) This book is "the Revelation of Jesus Christ". The MAIN focus should be to see Jesus Christ. There are many things in the book which can become distractions unless one remembers it is primarily to unveil, to reveal Jesus Christ
The main focus is not frogs, horns, hail stones, earthquakes, dragons, beasts, scorpions, etc,etc. etc. As exciting as some of these things are, they must be relegated to side issues, supporting matters, backround data. The CENTER of the prophecy is Jesus Christ and His accomplishments, character, and salvation.
"The revelation of Jesus Christ" (1:1). And we are told also that "the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of the prophecy" (Rev. 19:10 Recovery Version)
2.) There is a great blesssing in just READING the book. Do not fret to not understand all. No one can say there is nothing left in the Bible or in Revelation to still be seen into or seen into more deeply.
I strongly suggest reading the book aloud regardless. I suggest reading it without fear of being too overwhelmed with mystery -
"Blessed is he who READS and those who hear the words of the prophecy and keep the things written in it, for the time is near." (1:3)
As a young person I remember one night in Princeton New Jersey, in the center of town where kids would hang out, three of us just READ aloud much of the book of Revelation. What a blessing that was!
Obtain tapes to listen to someone else read while you drive. Alexander Scourby reads very well on CD. There is a blessing upon simply READING and HEARING the word of God in the book of Revelation.
3.) Now the next matters will be more involved.
There is nothing really NEW in the book of Revelation. When one encouters a symbolic matter one should consult HOW that symbol was used in the other books of the Bible. This helps.
Do not think Revelation is filled with a lot of NEW things. It is a climax. It is a consummation. It is a culmination of the other 65 books of the Bible.
Crucial to benefitting from Revelation is familiarity with the other books of the Bible. Revelation is not the ONLY difficult book with symbolism. Daniel, Ezekiel, Zechariah are books which are needed to refer back to in order to get into Revelation's symbolism.
4.) You must master ALL of the FACTS of Revelation to go deeper into the meanings. I find that many people cannot follow clear and logical exposition of this book simply because they have not mastered all the facts.
Where does he get that ?
How did he get that ?
Where did that explanation come from ?
Often questions like these are only because one has not become familiar enough with the FACTS. If you want to really get into Revelation you have to know all the facts that the passages state.
This is not meant to sound condescending. Notice that one poster asked me about who is the Woman in Revelation 12. We had a slight disagreement. I think he was helped by simply refering him to the details of the FACTS in the chapter. One has to be very familiar with all of the content of the book in order to better understand the book.
5.) John was in spirit and the reader should be in a praying spirit in reading Revelation. Pray over what you read. Exercise that spiritual part of your being and pray yourself into your own innermost spirit seeking Christ, touching God.
Revelation can only come to those who are in spirit. That is their innermost being is turned to God and to Christ the Savior, seeking Him, touching and enjoying Christ.
Heaven help the unregenerated curious person who comes to the book of Revelation. In that case go back to # 2 advice. "Blessed is he who READS and those who HEAR the words of the prophecy and KEEP the things written ..." . Of course we all need Heaven's help regardless. Praise Him God is willing.
6.) There are some things past, some things ongoing, and some things to come in this book. It really is not binary matter of either or. The Holy Spirit will guide the believers into all of the truth.
7.) Revelation is the conclusion of the divine revelation of the whole Bible. Forget about cutting it out of the Bible. Without the book of Revelation the Bible really has no proper conclusion. This is the grand finale. This is the coda and final magnificent conclusion of the whole revelation of God to man.
8.) Anyone who looks around at the state of Christianity and regards it as normal or as what God really intended, will have great difficulty in understanding Revelation. For a major aspect of the book is how degraded the Christian church will become before the second coming of Christ.
9.) Conversely, anyone who foolishly assumes the church of Christ can be defeated and that God can be defeated, will have great difficulty in comprehending Revelation. This book is not only about the victorious overcoming of the Son of God. It is also about the inevitable victory and overcoming of the people of God.
Anyone in dispair or gloating that the Christian church is defeated or damaged beyond recovery will not understand the book of Revelation well.
That's good for one post. Thanks for reading.
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John..
Shortly come to pass means that the visions in Revelation are all prophesies. This revelation of John took place a few years after Christ left his disciples. So these are all things which WILL HAPPEN subsequent to that point.
Any interpretation that includes the PAST about Israel, Mary, Christ .. must be wrong by definition.
Revelation 12 has much to do with the victory in spiritual warfare, of God's people.
"And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death." (v.11)
This merely about events 1 and 2 and 3 which will one day happen. This is concerning the WAY of victory for the church in the spiritual warfare against Satan.
If anyone recalls the story of Gideon's army of 300 in Judges 6:1 - 8:32. This is a completely relevant story of how God accomplished His will. He did so in spite of the apathy, weakness, degradation, cowardice, or general unfitness of the majority of His people. He secured His victory and glory with a remnant and minority preserved by Him to be faithful.
This was Gideon's little army of 300. I wish some of us would review Judges 6:1 - 8:32 to see how a very similar principle is at work in Revelation 12.
The Manchild that is brought forth from the Universal Bright Woman is like Gideon's little army of 300 brought out from the whole nation of Israel. The victory they secure in the spiritual warfare is not for their benefit alone. It is for the entire Body of God's people's benefit, indeed for the benefit of the world.
Look again - "And I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of our Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimomy and they loved not thier soul-life even unto death."
Anyone reading this post, anyone, in principle, can co-experience this victory for God. This is not simply a matter of something that will happen someday. Embodied in this chapter are principles of victory in Christ and overcoming the enemy of God and man, for the accomplishment of God's eternal purpose.
Originally posted by Rajk999Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants [b]things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John..
Shortly come to pass means that the visions in Revelation are all prophesies. This revelation of John took place a few year ...[text shortened]... interpretation that includes the PAST about Israel, Mary, Christ .. must be wrong by definition.[/b]
Any interpretation that includes the PAST about Israel, Mary, Christ .. must be wrong by definition.
No. Some of the things which are included in this book, though symbolic are:
1.) The ascension and enthronement of Christ after His resurrection
2.) The history of church throughout the ages.
3.) The initial church age and her persecution and overcoming.
4.) The development of clergy / laity apostasy.
5.) The degradation in church history resulting from the world's pollution of the church.
6.) The development of Catholicism. - Thytira
7.) The development of Protestantism. - Sardis
8.) The recovery of the brotherly love and unity of the church. - Philadelphia
9.) The degradation of the recovered church. - Laodicea
These matters are propheticaly covered in the mysterious letters of chapters 2 and 3.
Number 1, the ascension of Christ, is covered in symbolic form in chapter FIVE. John is carried away in spirit and sees in symbols what transpired in Heaven when Jesus Christ ascended to Heaven after His earthly ministry.
Therefore, I submit that some things of the past in church history are covered in the symbolism. Not being able to see this may not close the book to one completely. But I am sure it helps to see them in chapters 2 and 3.
Also the tail of the dragon sweeping the stars behind it and casting them to the earth (Rev. 12:3,4) at least touches or refers to some aspect of Satan's history. The tail of the dragon may refer to Satan's deception, but I couldn't insist upon this.
However, we do know that it was in the ancient past that Satan obtained the angels that follow him by deception. They bought into his opposition to the Creator. The vision has to be understood with some reference to the ancient past.
Ie. " the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels ..." (Matt. 25:41)
I believe that Revelation 2 and 3 were a prophetic look into what was to John's time, the future of the Christian church. And now much of these prophecies could be considered having taken place already in the past.
But the lessons embodied in them are still quite useful.
If anyone recalls the story of Gideon's army of 300 in Judges 6:1 - 8:32. This is a completely relevant story of how God accomplished His will. He did so in spite of the apathy, weakness, degradation, cowardice, or general unfitness of the majority of His people. He secured His victory and glory with a remnant and minority preserved by Him to be faithful.
God must accomplish His eternal purpose with the cooperation of His people. He will not do all that He wishes to do unilaterally. He must have coordination with at least a remnant, a minority of His people.
I don't know what God insists to act this way. But He does want coordination and cooperation in His defeat of Satan and His establishing His kingdom.
We ALL have a chance to participate.
I said we ALL, if we are won over to His will, have a chance to participate in this huge honor.
cont. below.
When the Bible says "and she was with child ..." (Rev. 12:2) it means that at first you cannot SEE the child. You see the woman. Within the woman is another entity - a Manchild. She is WITH child. Until the child is delivered you cannot see the distinction.
"And she was with child, and she cried out, travailing in birth and being in pain to bring forth."
The crying out of God's people, whether they realize it or not, is ultimately not so much for deliverance from hard times. Rather to God it is a crying out for spiritual victory.
The end of this crying out is the child being seen as distinct from the woman. But before this delivery woman and child are so one as there to be little discernable difference.
Throughout the history of God's people there has always been within the total a stronger component. There is always a minority of stronger ones who pull up the slack made loose by the majority of God's people.
The Woman in the NT signifies the weaker vessel. I did not say the WEAK vessel. I said the weakER vessel. Only God Himself is the strength and power.
But the manchild signifies the stronger overcoming ones among the whole body of weaker ones.
This chapter 12 is about thier cooperation and subsubsequent victory to turn the age and bring in the kingdom of God to the earth.
Now in a soon coming post we will BACK up a little to the previous chapter 11. I will show you how the closing vision of chapter 11 prepares us for the vision of chapter 12.
Originally posted by menace71Thanks. According to the Bible and it's descriptions of God, he is not omnipresent, for he is spoken of as having a location. No scriptures say God is everywhere and in everything at all times. All the following scriptures say God is in specific places and not just everywhere. (1Ki 8:49; Joh 16:28; Heb 9:24)
I mean do you believe God Almighty (Jehovah) is omnipresent? In any context ?
I correct myself I meant omnipresent
Manny
His throne is in heaven. (Isa 66:1) And other scriptures speak of God sitting on his throne. So that throne is a spefic thing and it would show he is sitting there.
But don't confuse this with his ability to see all things. Jehovah is a being that we actually know very little about in connection with his actual being. He also has myriads of angels that he uses as messengers to keep him informed of many things. He also uses his spirit or power to direct his many wishes.
Originally posted by jaywillWho is this "remnant" you are speaking of here?
[quote] If anyone recalls the story of Gideon's army of 300 in Judges 6:1 - 8:32. This is a completely relevant story of how God accomplished His will. He did so in spite of the apathy, weakness, degradation, cowardice, or general unfitness of the majority of His people. He secured His victory and glory with a remnant and minority preserved by Him to be fait ...[text shortened]... are won over to His will, have a chance to participate in this huge honor.
cont. below.
Originally posted by galveston75I should take a slight diversion and respond to some of these thoughts.
Thanks. According to the Bible and it's descriptions of God, he is not omnipresent, for he is spoken of as having a location. No scriptures say God is everywhere and in everything at all times. All the following scriptures say God is in specific places and not just everywhere. (1Ki 8:49; Joh 16:28; Heb 9:24)
His throne is in heaven. (Isa 66:1) And othe keep him informed of many things. He also uses his spirit or power to direct his many wishes.
Thanks. According to the Bible and it's descriptions of God, he is not omnipresent, for he is spoken of as having a location.
Well, it is not quite that binary. God is EVERYWHERE on one hand. On another hand God seeks to EXPAND the realm of His presence.
1.) God is everywhere as omnipresent -
"Where shall I go, away from Your Spirit, And where shall I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, there You are. If I take the wings of the dawn and settle at the limits of the sea, There also Your hand will lead me, and Your right hand will take hold of me." (Psalm 139:7-10)
God is everywhere. "“But will God indeed dwell with man on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you, how much less this house that I have built!..." (2 Chron. 6:18)
On one hand God is said to be omnipresent.
On the other hand God wants to dispense His life and nature into those whom He redeems to be His own.
"Jesus answered and said to him. If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)
The Triune God as the Divine WE wants to come to the lover of Christ, and make His home, His abode with him. The omnipresnce of God does not mean that He dwells in every man.
He accomplished in Christ a redemption so that the omnipresent God may impart Himself into where He is not in that sense. Or else why is there a need for Him to "come to him and make an abode with him." Isn't God EVERYWHERE ?
Yes and no. Again He pours forth the Spirit of His Son into the hearts the believers -
" And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, Abba Father! " (Galatians 4:6)
The Spirit of His Son is the Spirit of God.
The Spirit of God today is the life giving Spirit and is Christ in His pneumatic form.
"The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
In His form as "life giving Spirit" He seeks to come into where He is not yet. In spite of God's omnipresence, He seeks to come into the vessel of man's human being.
God is omnipresent. But today the Triune God seeks a corporate habitation within a group of people - a dwelling place of God in spirit:
"In whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in spirit" (Eph. 2:22)
Therefore the omnipresent God today, in Christ, as the Holy Spirit seeks to enter into where He can live and impart His life into man. The act of being born again is much more than an individual salvation. It is a continuation of God's operation to "build" a dwelling place of God in spirit. That is to dispense Himself into man for a mutual and corporate abode.
No scriptures say God is everywhere and in everything at all times.
I would request that you look again at Psalm 139. And I know that as a JW you are very fond of the Old Testament. WHERE can the Psalmist go to get away from God ? Nowhere.
And even in the NT book of Acts Paul quotes the truth of even pagan poets that God is everywhere. And Paul adds -
" ' For in Him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are His offspring ...' " (Acts 17:28)
In one sense we cannot get away from God's presence.
All the following scriptures say God is in specific places and not just everywhere. (1Ki 8:49; Joh 16:28; Heb 9:24)
That is the other side of the truth. This Old Testament type prepares man for the realization that in the New Testament God imparts Himself in His life and nature into His redeemed people.
" ... WE [Father and Son BY the Spirit] will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)
" ... the Spirit of reality, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him; but you know Him, because He abides with you and shall be in you.
I will not leaven you as orphans; I am coming to you." (John 14:17,18)
Christ says in this chapter that He and His Father are coming to make an abode with His lovers. Christ also says that He will not leave His lovers as orphans. He is coming to them. And His coming to them is in spite of the omnipresence of God and the Spirit of God.
In fact the Spirit of God was WITH them - "He abides WITH you ...". But after His resurrection He will impart Himself as life giving Spirit INTO them to be not only WITH them but IN them -
"He abides with you and shall be in you."
The coming of this Spirit of God is the coming of Jesus Christ Himself, emphatically -
"He [the Spirit of reality] abides with you and shall be in you, I WILL NOT LEAVE YOU AS ORPHANS; I AM COMING TO YOU."
Jesus Christ as God incarnate and as the Holy Spirit of reality is coming TO make an abode in the believers, not leaving them as orphans. He is coming to them in the act of regeneration. In being born again Christ is coming to them.
It is not simply that outwardly He is coming in His second advent. That is true also. But here in John 14, the coming of Christ is the coming of the Spirit of reality. And the comiing of the Spirit of reality is the coming of the Father and the Son as the Divine "WE" .
The other part I will respond to below.