Originally posted by jaywill"I would request that you look again at Psalm 139. And I know that as a JW you are very fond of the Old Testament. WHERE can the Psalmist go to get away from God ? Nowhere."
I should take a slight diversion and respond to some of these thoughts.
Thanks. According to the Bible and it's descriptions of God, he is not omnipresent, for he is spoken of as having a location.
Well, it is not quite that binary. God is EVERYWHERE on one hand. On another hand God seeks to EXPAND the realm of His presence.
...[text shortened]... WE" .
The other part I will respond to below.[/b]
Well the point that God can see all does not mean his is there in your house in his person or being. One could see a person walking on a sidewalk with a street cam of somekind while looking on a tv screen in some office but that does not mean he is there in person.
So with God having the abilty to see all would mean yes we cannot get away from him ti hide but that does not imply he is with you in his being.
"Where shall I go, away from Your Spirit"
This is explaining that no we cannot get away from God's spirit or his enfluance but this is not God himself this is speaking of or else it would have said "God" instead of "spirit". There is a differance.
Originally posted by jaywillThanks for the post...
This discussion has seemed to branch out from simply 17 verses to include the entire book of Revelation, its place in the Bible, and the different approaches to it.
Because [b]Revelation is a difficult book I would like to offer some hopefully helpful suggestions in reading it. This advice should be profitable to anyone who comes with an open mi ...[text shortened]... and the book of Revelation well.
That's good for one post. Thanks for reading.[/b]
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Originally posted by galveston75
Who is this "remnant" you are speaking of here?
Who is this "remnant" you are speaking of here?
I explained this before. Have you paid attention ?
The remnant who compose the manchild of Revelation 12 are the overcomers of the Old Testament age and the New Testament age who loved not their soul-life even unto death in living unto God.
From the generations of the past, there is accumulating in Paradise an ever growing group of people who were overcomers. Here and there are some. Here and there are some more. Throughout generations there have always been some stronger ones.
Before the turn of the age to the millennial kingdom they will be resurrected and raptured and caught up to God and to His throne in the third heavens.
Do you now understand who the manchild is ?
Originally posted by jaywillYes I'm paying attention but it is very hard to follow your comments. So much information and to be honest very hard to follow.Who is this "remnant" you are speaking of here?
I explained this before. Have you paid attention ?
The remnant who compose the manchild of Revelation 12 are the overcomers of the Old Testament age and the New Testament age who loved not their soul-life even unto death in living unto God.
From the generation of the past, there i ...[text shortened]... to God and to His throne in the third heavens.
Do you now understand who the manchild is ?
So trying to clearify this remnant, are they also the ones who the bible describes as the anointed or chosen ones?
And as you say they are caught up to the heavens to God's throne at some time, is this the same throne that will supposedly be on earth in this new Jerusalem?
Originally posted by galveston75
Yes I'm paying attention but it is very hard to follow your comments. So much information and to be honest very hard to follow.
So trying to clearify this remnant, are they also the ones who the bible describes as the anointed or chosen ones?
And as you say they are caught up to the heavens to God's throne at some time, is this the same throne that will supposedly be on earth in this new Jerusalem?
Yes I'm paying attention but it is very hard to follow your comments. So much information and to be honest very hard to follow.
So trying to clearify this remnant, are they also the ones who the bible describes as the anointed or chosen ones?
And as you say they are caught up to the heavens to God's throne at some time, is this the same throne that will supposedly be on earth in this new Jerusalem?
I am sorry. I take for granted that some of these things may be entirely new, especially as you have been taught something else.
First an important EDITING of my previous post
I meant to write:
The group of ever growing overcomers being accumulated in Paradise from the generations.
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Originally posted by galveston75
Yes I'm paying attention but it is very hard to follow your comments. So much information and to be honest very hard to follow.
So trying to clearify this remnant, are they also the ones who the bible describes as the anointed or chosen ones?
And as you say they are caught up to the heavens to God's throne at some time, is this the same throne that will supposedly be on earth in this new Jerusalem?
So trying to clearify this remnant, are they also the ones who the bible describes as the anointed or chosen ones?
They are not the ONLY ones anointed. They are ones OBEYING the teaching of the anointing.
They are not the ONLY ones chosen. The are the chosen AND faithful of past generations.
Have you read about the saints underneath the altar in the 5th seal in Revelation 6:9-11 crying out to God for His vengence to those on the earth that so persecuted them ? Think of these as comprising the Manchild too in Revelation 12.
These are martyrs from the Old Testament age gone by and the New Testament age on going even up to this very moment. The number of such overcomers continues growing as overcoming believers fall asleep in Christ.
These are OVERCOMERS who will be in Paradise, deceased, around the time shortly before the beginning of the great tribulation.
No, they are NOT the ONLY chosen or the ONLY anointed. It is their RESPONSE to God which places them in this group. There is CO-OPERATION between God and God's people. COOPERATION. God does a part and we respond by doing a part and COOPERATE with the almighty God.
Do you understand ?
And as you say they are caught up to the heavens to God's throne at some time, is this the same throne that will supposedly be on earth in this new Jerusalem?
They are caught up to the THIRD heavens to God and to His throne. Where the throne is , coming, going, over here or over there in the future, is not terribly germane here.
Your question kind of indicates that you are very occupied with objective and outward thoughts about physical things. I am not sure how to help you.
THIRD Heaven is some place. God's throne is someplace in that sense. And this is a resurrection and rapture to Heaven.
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Originally posted by galveston75
"I would request that you look again at Psalm 139. And I know that as a JW you are very fond of the Old Testament. WHERE can the Psalmist go to get away from God ? Nowhere."
Well the point that God can see all does not mean his is there in your house in his person or being. One could see a person walking on a sidewalk with a street cam of somekind wh peaking of or else it would have said "God" instead of "spirit". There is a differance.
Well the point that God can see all does not mean his is there in your house in his person or being. One could see a person walking on a sidewalk with a street cam of somekind while looking on a tv screen in some office but that does not mean he is there in person.
I see your point exactly. And I will not argue ad infinitum over this.
You have some room to say "Well, WELL, Psalm 139 just means God is LOOKING everywhere."
Well that is an interpretation that one could arguably make, perhaps in those passages. But in the other examples I gave (which I preemptively selected because I usually anticipate how a Jehovah's Witness is likely to argue), you have God everywhere.
I mean He not only sees all heaven and earth. He FILLS all heaven and earth and is therefore omnipresent.
So with God having the abilty to see all would mean yes we cannot get away from him ti hide but that does not imply he is with you in his being.
I understand. However, the Psalmist said that God's HAND would guide him even if he was in the uttermost part of the sea.
And though for certain there are passages about God SEEING everywhere, the Psalmist said that in Sheol God would not only see but be there.
"Where shall I go, away from Your Spirit"
This is explaining that no we cannot get away from God's spirit or his enfluance but this is not God himself this is speaking of or else it would have said "God" instead of "spirit". There is a differance.
Remember how I said that I was likely to be led into fighting you off ? Remember that I wrote that ? Now it begins, doesn't it?
Take the passage as you would like to take it. I am fully convinced that the Psalm and the other passages support the omnipresence of God.
You do not have to believe as I believe. That is how I understand it.
If you want to take it as just God seeing everywhere or just the enfluence of God everywhere, go ahead.
His Spirit is Himself. I am certain of that.
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"Where shall I go, away from Your Spirit, And where shall I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, there You are. If I take the wings of the dawn and settle at the limits of the sea, There also Your hand will lead me, and Your right hand will take hold of me." (Psalm 139:7-10)
In Heaven - You are there.
What about Sheol ? You are there.
It is not that He is in Heaven but His eyes are in Sheol. Both places get the same evaluation exactly - YOU ARE THERE.
His presence is in both places.
How about the uttermost parts of the sea ?
He not only SEES, His HAND guides. He is THERE TOO. Now don't get overly physical. The point is about nowhere being a place where man can get away from the omnipresent God.
Originally posted by galveston75Ok you clarified this thank you. This is hence why the JW's once believed that Jehovah's throne was in the Pleiades star cluster right?
Thanks. According to the Bible and it's descriptions of God, he is not omnipresent, for he is spoken of as having a location. No scriptures say God is everywhere and in everything at all times. All the following scriptures say God is in specific places and not just everywhere. (1Ki 8:49; Joh 16:28; Heb 9:24)
His throne is in heaven. (Isa 66:1) And othe ...[text shortened]... keep him informed of many things. He also uses his spirit or power to direct his many wishes.
We differ on so many things I believe God is omnipresent but how can our finite minds comprehend a being like God? Crazy So Jehovah could come to the earth in a big UFO ?
Manny
Originally posted by jaywillThanks. So are they the same ones as the anointed or the chosens ones that Jesus hand picked the beginning of when he was here?
[quote] Yes I'm paying attention but it is very hard to follow your comments. So much information and to be honest very hard to follow.
So trying to clearify this remnant, are they also the ones who the bible describes as the anointed or chosen ones?
And as you say they are caught up to the heavens to God's throne at some time, is this the same throne th ...[text shortened]...
The group of ever growing overcomers being accumulated in Paradise from the generations.
And this still does not make sense in that God's thone comes down to heaven, to many things don't add up such as the scripture that clearly says "no man may see God and live" and that "no man has ever see God".
Also why would this remnant go up to heaven and then come back down? Why not just wait until Jesus supposedly comes down if this new city? Plus the Bible says the "heavens are the place they live or their home". The bible never says they will come back to earth.
Originally posted by menace71Well I'll have to look that up and see what was their thought behind that then. Maybe it's just a beautiful area and they were praising God. But I'll look that up.
Ok you clarified this thank you. This is hence why the JW's once believed that Jehovah's throne was in the Pleiades star cluster right?
We differ on so many things I believe God is omnipresent but how can our finite minds comprehend a being like God? Crazy So Jehovah could come to the earth in a big UFO ?
Manny
And if you believe he is omnipresent that is ok with me. But remember that word is not in the bible and nothing indicates that he is. If he was everywhere at all times the Bible would probably say that to help us know him.
Do you know where that thought and idea of him being that way came from?
And no comment on the UFO. That's a little silly.
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Originally posted by galveston75
Thanks. So are they the same ones as the anointed or the chosens ones that Jesus hand picked the beginning of when he was here?
And this still does not make sense in that God's thone comes down to heaven, to many things don't add up such as the scripture that clearly says "no man may see God and live" and that "no man has ever see God".
Also why wo e the place they live or their home". The bible never says they will come back to earth.
Thanks. So are they the same ones as the anointed or the chosens ones that Jesus hand picked the beginning of when he was here?
Galveston, sorry to say, but you are not paying close attention.
Do you remember that I said that this group of overcomers was from both the Old Testament age and the New Testament age ?
If they include some from the Old Testament age wouldn't that be before Jesus was born ? I am a Christian Galveston. Before "the Word became flesh" in the Old Testament age, there were some overcoming ones - like Isaiah probably who was sawn in half; like Samson perhaps, who gave his last measure of consecration to destroy enemies of Israel; like Daniel and his companions, and like so many others, who either were martyred physically or perhaps gave their lives in virtual martyrdom of faithfulness.
The overcomers, I SAID, were from both the Old Testament age and the New Testament age.
Remember, the Universal Bright Woman contains both Old Testament saints (the moon and the stars) as well as New Testament saints (the sun clothing the major part of her body).
The source is the entire Body of God's people on the earth. So what comes out of her as the Manchild, I deem to be from all those ages as well.
The Old Testament saints by faith looked FORWARD to the coming Christ. So their redemption was foreshadowed in the animal sacrifices. They trusted in those and therefore really trusted in the Lamb of God, Christ, who was future to them.
They all overcame through the blood of the Lamb of God.
And this still does not make sense in that God's thone comes down to heaven, to many things don't add up such as the scripture that clearly says "no man may see God and live" and that "no man has ever see God".
First of all, you are not quoting the entire passage, which I think is important to do.
"No one has ever seen God; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him." (John 1:18)
As a serious Bible student we have to not only learn what the Bible says. We have to learn what ELSE the Bible says. We not only must learn what is written. We must learn what "again, it is written".
No one has ever seen God. But the only begotten Son has declared Him. And the Apostle John says -
"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have SEEN WITH OUR EYES, which we BEHELD and our hands handled, concerning the Word of life ...And the life was MANIFESTED, and we have SEEN and testify and report to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was MANIFESTED to us)
That which we have SEEN and heard we report to you ..." (First John 1:1-3)
He is talking about he and the other disciples having SEEN and HEARD the Eternal Life which is God. For the Word was with God and the Word WAS God.
And the Word became flesh. In so much that the disciples had SEEN, HEARD, and HANDLED the Word that became flesh, they saw God incarnate.
This is why John says that this SEEING superceeds the seeing of God that occured in the Old Testament. Abraham saw God. Jacob saw God. The 70 elders plus Moses and Aaron saw God. Isaiah saw God. Menoah saw God.
Now the Apostle John makes a bold statement that no one has ever seen God. Those seeings of God are NOW [edited] surpassed by the seeing of God incarnate as the Word who was God became flesh.
We are wondering off the subject matter of Revelation 12 and subtly being channeled over to familiar battle turf of the Watchtower. Ie. no one can see Jehovah, etc. etc.
I think I will pay more attention to questions put to me by some other posters for awhile. I can feel the drift onto your familiar battle turf. And I was hoping not to get into those old disputes.
Would you like me to leave this thread and start my own on the matter of Revelation ?
Also why would this remnant go up to heaven and then come back down?
Look at Revelation 19. Does not Christ come to the earth with an army ?
"And the armies which are in heaven followed Him [Christ] on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean. " (Rev. 19:14)
Some overcomers are following Christ as He descends from Heaven before the battle of Armegeddon. Right ?
And Jude also says that some saints of Christ come WITH Christ. So what is the problem?
"And Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied also of these, saying, Behold, the Lord came with myriads of His saints." (Jude 14)
Did you notice that? The Lord was seen coming with myriads of His saints. So at least some of His overcoming saints accompany Christ in His descent to the earth.
This is a reward to them.
Why not just wait until Jesus supposedly comes down if this new city? Plus the Bible says the "heavens are the place they live or their home". The bible never says they will come back to earth.
I just quoted to you that some saints come with Christ from heaven. They had to previously go up there. Right ?