Rev 12: 1-17

Originally posted by JS357
It doesn't interest me.

Ok that's fine.

Originally posted by menace71
This is fairly easy to understand. The women represents Israel and on a more basic level Mary but Israel whom the Messiah would be born through. Then the Serpent is persecuting the believers in God as it says and silly as it sounds I believe it's anger and jealousy that God has chosen mortal man not much more than glorified dirt balls with eyeballs 🙂 Also ...[text shortened]... l. one thousand two hundred and sixty days is the one part I'm as clear on.

Manny

Manny

The women represents Israel and on a more basic level Mary but Israel whom the Messiah would be born through.

The woman as Israel is too restrictive. She must include more. The woman as Mary, I think is out of the question.

With the woman is universal LIGHT. She is CLOTHED with the sun. She has the moon underneath her feet. And a crown of twelve stars is upon her head. Therefore she embodies the universality of light.

We may call her a Universal Bright Woman.

"And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon underneath her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars;" (v.1)

Now there is nothing much new in the book of Revelation. When you encounter a symbol you should consider where else in the Bible such a similar symbol was used. Based on its usage in the past we may receive aid to understand how it is being used here.

The sun, moon, and stars were also seen in the dream of Joseph concerning his family of father, mother, and brothers.

In Genesis 37:9, Joseph in his dream saw the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars, signifying his father, his mopther, and his eleven brothers. There the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars, plus Joseph himself, signified the totality of God's people on the earth. Based upon the priniciple of that dream, the sun, the moon, and the twelve stars here must signify the totality of god's people on earth.

The position of the sun, the position of the moon, and the position of the stars have a particular meaning. And that I will expound latter.

This vision of a Woman of Universal Light signifies the totality of God's people on the earth through THREE dispensations - that of the partriachs before the giving of the law - the crown of stars on her head, the age of the law as the dispensation from Moses to Christ, and the age of grace as the sun clothing the major part of the woman's body.

From the patriarchs and heroes of faith before the LAW, they are exalted upon her head. From the law which is a reflection of Christ in the New Testament -as the moon is a reflected light from the sun. And the greater part of her body covered with the sun representing Christ.

The moon is SUBJECT to her. That is why it is under her feet. She now stands in Grace and is justified by Christ Himself through faith - the Sun of Righteousness, Christ is the main covering of her body.

She is the totality of God's light upon the earth throughout the ages. This is the Universal Bright Woman.

Stop here.

Originally posted by galveston75
Thanks Manny. So just a couple questions. The later part of verse 4 says the dragon or the Devil was standing before this woman so he could kill this child? So when did this happen in the events of Mary having Jesus back when he was born? There seems to be no menation of that in the accounts of the gosples that I can find. So let me know on that.
And I ...[text shortened]... mean? Is she up in heaven as some godess that has the moon and sun as her settings around here?

No you miss read it's the serpent who is angry and jealous. I explained that on a lesser part it represented Mary but I really believe the women is Israel



Manny

Originally posted by jaywill

Well I think that is not a fair statement but I would be able to comment myself on this wouldn't I?

You have dismissed long paragraphs that I have labored on carefully as garbage nonsense in the most contemptuous way.

I mean if someone has some REASONS why they think and exegesis is off, I am willing to look at their reasons.

W ...[text shortened]... highly as I can.

I don't think you're going to like that. But the invitation is noted.

I'm sorry if I have done that and do hope you post here with this thread. Thanks. But I do ask that you post do relate to these verses.

Originally posted by jaywill

The women represents Israel and on a more basic level Mary but Israel whom the Messiah would be born through.

The woman as Israel is too restrictive. She must include more. The woman as Mary, I think is out of the question.

With the woman is universal LIGHT. She is CLOTHED with the sun. She has the moon underneath her feet. And a c ...[text shortened]... upon the earth throughout the ages. This is the Universal Bright Woman.

Stop here.

I mostly agree with you except the women diffidently represents Israel which can be said to be God's people




Manny

Originally posted by menace71
No you miss read it's the serpent who is angry and jealous. I explained that on a lesser part it represented Mary but I really believe the women is Israel



Manny

Ok thanks...

Originally posted by menace71
I mostly agree with you except the women diffidently represents Israel which can be said to be God's people




Manny

So still Israel of today on earth of the spiritual Israel that the Bible speaks of that God now works thru?

Originally posted by galveston75
So still Israel of today on earth of the spiritual Israel that the Bible speaks of that God now works thru?

Both is what I believe



Manny

Originally posted by jaywill

The women represents Israel and on a more basic level Mary but Israel whom the Messiah would be born through.

The woman as Israel is too restrictive. She must include more. The woman as Mary, I think is out of the question.

With the woman is universal LIGHT. She is CLOTHED with the sun. She has the moon underneath her feet. And a c ...[text shortened]... upon the earth throughout the ages. This is the Universal Bright Woman.

Stop here.

Sorry Jaywill but you just completely lost me here. But going back to those verses it says she gives birth. I don't understand how this description lines up with the birth she has of the lamb who is Jesus but not in a literal sence. As you said this is not speaking of Mary at all. This cannot of course be a real person because of all the other descriptions given here. Also this representaion of a woman has to flee for her life or existance and finally is hid by God as is said in verse 6.
And this term you used the "Universal Woman of Light" I've never seen. Where do you get that from?

Originally posted by menace71
Both is what I believe



Manny

Ok thanks. But look at these scriptures and see if the literal Israel is still in God's favour. Remember, they never accepted Jesus as the messiah and were behind his death..

Matthew 21:43
Amplified Bible (AMP)

43 I tell you, for this reason the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce the fruits of it.

Jesus was speaking of the Jews here and stating the Kingdom would be taken away from them as a whole and never said it would ever return there.



Hebrews 12:22
Amplified Bible (AMP)

22 But rather, you have come to Mount Zion, even to the city of the living God, the "heavenly Jerusalem", and to countless multitudes of angels in festal gathering,

This and many other scriptures always speak of a "Heavenly Jerusalem, not the earthly Jerusalem when speaking of it being under his rule.



Galatians 3:28
Amplified Bible (AMP)

28 There is [now no distinction] neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is not male [a]and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

This and many other scriptures show that all humans no matter where they are from have this opportunity to be used by God. Israel was God's first chosen people but they eventually turned their backs on God and that opened up the opportunity for all peoples from all lands.



Romans 9:27
Amplified Bible (AMP)

27 And Isaiah calls out (solemnly cries aloud) over Israel: Though the number of the sons of Israel be like the sand of the sea, only the "remnant" (a small part of them) will be saved [[a]from perdition, condemnation, judgment]!


Notice it says here only a small remnant will be brought from Israel. All the rest would be from all peoples from all lands.

The point is no where in the Bible does it say that earthly Jerusalem will ever be used again as God's center for his worshipers

I have to run some errands but will be back. keep posting though...

Originally posted by galveston75
Ok that's fine.

But what does interest me is what other people think about it. So thanks for bringing it up.

Originally posted by JS357
But what does interest me is what other people think about it. So thanks for bringing it up.

Thanks and it does me too. It's a tuff one to explain but it was put in the Bible for a reason. It's not just there to throw us a curve ball and mess with our minds but it has to be understood and with the rest of Revelation pointing to some really bad things happeneing, we should understand it in the way God intendend. But why was it written in this way?

Ok thanks. But look at these scriptures and see if the literal Israel is still in God's favour. Remember, they never accepted Jesus as the messiah and were behind his death..


7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

Who are those who pierced him ? The Jewish people


Israel Is Not Cast Away

Romans 11

11 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.” 4 But what is the divine response to him? “ I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Paul says in the first sentence has God rejected Israel ? May it never be

and also

Paul goes on to say

11:11 --- I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!

Manny

Originally posted by galveston75
Thanks and it does me too. It's a tuff one to explain but it was put in the Bible for a reason. It's not just there to throw us a curve ball and mess with our minds but it has to be understood and with the rest of Revelation pointing to some really bad things happeneing, we should understand it in the way God intendend. But why was it written in this way?

I was taught one reason that the book called Revelation is important to the Bible is that in it, we are told that the Bible, with this book, is complete and will not be added to, and if anyone tries to pass something off as if we should add it to the Bible, they are wrong. Please feel free to tell me if this teaching was incorrect.

Edit: But this is off topic so it's OK if you don't care to comment.