Originally posted by jaywillMost of the Universal Bright Woman is clothed with the sun. The sun signifies God's people in the New Testament age. Before Christ came to the world, it was the dark night of the Old Testament age. When Jesus Christ came He came as the rising sun from on high (Luke 1:78).I mostly agree with you except the women diffidently represents Israel which can be said to be God's people
There are those who restrict the symbolism of the Woman to Israel. I do not. I can only present some reasons. You do not have to agree with them.
Consider that the children of the Woman really are not PLUS the Woman but are ]
I have written nothing about other features of the chapter yet.
When the rising sun of Christ came from on high (Luke 1:78), we might say the age of the sun came. Before this coming of Christ and the age of the sun it was the age of the moon. That is that the Law of Moses was kind of a reflection of Christ. The source of the light is Christ Himself. The reflected shining that came before in the law of Moses was of the old testament age. '
The moon, the reflected light, is seen underneath the feet of the Woman. This does not mean anything of disrespect. It means that the moon has become subject to her. Subjugation of the Law of Moses underneath Grace is the meaning there. Justification in Christ in the New Testament age has placed the Law keeping from Moses Justification, subject to the people of God. The vast majority of the Universal Bright Woman stands in the grace of Christ for justification before God. So the major part of her body is clothed with the sun - the new covenant age with Christ.
Now FAITH is exalted throughout both the Old Testament and the New Testament. Particularly, the patriarchs before the giving of the Law, men like Enosh, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, and Joseph, these were people of faith before the age of the moon came in the Law of Moses.
These people of faith are exalted upon the head of the woman as a crown -
" ... and on her head a crown of twelve stars".
1.) Faith is Exalted.
2.) The Law of Moses is subject
3.) The major part is clothed in the grace of Christ
This is how we should understand the symbolism of -
"a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon underneath her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars..." (v.1)
Above I have answered Manny's valid objection that Israel should be understood by this Woman.
I have pointed out that something more all inclusive should be the interpretation as the totality of God's elect people on the earth. In priniciple she is seen in heaven as a transcendent entity. But when it comes to practical persecution from the dragon on "the rest of her seed" she is continued to be seen on the earth in that seed.
And that seed consist of :
1.) Those who keep the commandments of God - law keeping Jews
2.) and who have the testimony of Jesus - the church
After the rapture of the Manchild (which I have not addressed yet) the Jews and the Christians left upon the earth will suffer terrible persecution from Satan and his Antichrist.
One point that is being missed here about this "new heaven" is which heaven is being replaced? The Bible speaks of heaven on many levels. The one that is being described in the discussion of being destroyed or replaced with a new one is the local heaven or the ruling powers that now control the earth.
John’s vision refers to the passing away of “the former heaven and the former earth.” (Re 21:1; compare 20:11.)
In the Christian Greek Scriptures, earthly governments and their peoples are shown to be subject to Satanic rule. (Mt 4:8, 9; Joh 12:31; 2Co 4:3, 4; Re 12:9; 16:13, 14)
The apostle Paul referred to “the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places,” with their governments, authorities, and world rulers. (Eph 6:12)
So the passing away of “the former heaven” indicates the end of political governments along with Satan and his demons.
This identification of “the former heaven” harmonizes with the fact that shortly before the statement concerning the ‘former heaven having passed away,’ John had seen a vision of the complete defeat of Satan’s forces and the casting of Satan into “the abyss.” (Re 19:19–20:3)
The earthly subjects of Satan’s rule are destroyed prior to his abyssing, as shown at Revelation 19:17, 18. (Compare 1Jo 2:15-17.)
The description of a fiery destruction of heaven and earth at 2 Peter 3:7-12 corresponds to the visions in Revelation.
So this heaven that will be destroyed is not the heaven that God himself resides in. No need at all for that heaven to be replaced. That heaven was rid of Satan and his demons many decades ago.
The 'heavens" this prophecy is referring to is the local rule of the earth by the governments that Satan is controlling.
So this "new heavens and new earth" are just the cleansing of the wickedness and the control that has been administerd by them. Once cleansed then the full affect of the "new heaven" of Christ rule will be in affect.
Originally posted by galveston75Yes, God's heavenly throne is in the third heaven. That heaven will not be replaced for that is where the New Jerusalem was prepared while the other new heavens and new earth were being made.
One point that is being missed here about this "new heaven" is which heaven is being replaced? The Bible speaks of heaven on many levels. The one that is being described in the discussion of being destroyed or replaced with a new one is the local heaven or the ruling powers that now control the earth.
John’s vision refers to the passing away of “the fo ...[text shortened]... Once cleansed then the full affect of the "new heaven" of Christ rule will be in affect.
Originally posted by RJHindsWell yes in the way where God's heaven is at so to say. So the throne that Jesus is to be sitting on beside his Father is in this 3rd heaven also, as you say?
Yes, God's heavenly throne is in the third heaven. That heaven will not be replaced for that is where the New Jerusalem was prepared while the other new heavens and new earth were being made.
This Universal Bright Women consists of the following entities in the vision.
1.) Herself of course.
2.) The Manchild within her.
3.) The rest of her seed .
We must see that the Manchild is a PART of the Woman. The same way a child is PART of the mother. From the outside one cannot tell any difference when the child is conceal inside its mother.
Only a distinction can be detected once the child is delivered FROM the mother. When the mother eats, the child is nourished. Within the mother lives the child. The two are one. Yet after delivery of the child there is seen some distinction.
Who is the Manchild within the Woman ?
Who or what is the Manchild living in, one with, concealed within the Universal Bright Woman ?
The Manchild - stands for the STRONGER portion of the Woman.
The Manchild is part of and within the Woman. But the Manchild is the stronger component of the whole Woman.
Within the totality of God's people there is always a remnant which rise to the normal level of cooperation with God. This is a stronger part of the total number. This is a remnant of God's people who are overcomers, coming up to the normal standard of cooperation. They are VICTORIOUS in that cooperation with God. They are overcomers who prevail against the opposition to God's kingdom.
The words spoken in verses 10,11 are words spoken concerning the Manchild, the overcoming stronger part of the Woman -
"And I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not thier soul-life even unto death." (Rev. 12:10,11)
Some important facts:
1.) The plural pronouns they, their, them prove that the speaking is concerning a CORPORATE entity. It is a collective group of people concerning whom the words "they" and "them" are spoken.
This rules out that the one being spoken about is the individual Jesus Christ. It is easy for many readers to think that the Manchild is simply Jesus Christ Himself.
But "our brothers" refers to the Manchild.
And "THEM" in the phrase "who accuses THEM before our God day and night" refers to the Manchild.
The words "they" in the phrase "and they loved not their soul-life even unto death" refer to the corporate manchild. The Manchild is therefore a collective, a plural group and not simply the baby Jesus individually.
2.) The corporate group is responsible for brining in the kingdom of God.
"Now is come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ" .
Many readers do not catch the connection between the rapture of the Manchild to God and to His throne (v.5) with the bringing in of the kingdom of God being celebrated in v.10.
The manchild, whom the dragon seeks to devour, is the overcoming stronger part of the total body of God's people throughout world history.
He, the Manchild, is not merely the INDIVIDUAL God/man. The Manchild is the COLLECTIVE and CORPORATE aggregate of stronger ones within the total body of God's people.
"... the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses THEM before our God day and night. And THEY overcame him [the accuser Satan] because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of THEIR testimony, and THEY loved not THEIR soul-life even unto death." (v.10b,11)
There are some verses in the Scriptures that may also appear at first glance to contradict God’s stated purpose for the earth.
For example, the Bible speaks of heaven and earth as ‘passing away.’ (Revelation 21:1) Surely these words do not contradict Jesus’ promise: “Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth.” (Matthew 5:5) What, then, does the Bible mean when it speaks of heaven and earth as ‘passing away’?
The Bible frequently uses the expression “earth” in a figurative sense, meaning human society. For example, consider the following verse: “All the earth continued to be of one language and of one set of words.” (Genesis 11:1) Obviously, “earth” here refers to the people who were living on the earth. Another example is Psalm 96:1, which according to the King James Version states: “Sing unto the LORD, all the earth.” Clearly, in this and many other passages, the word “earth” is used figuratively to refer to people.—Psalm 96:13.
The Bible sometimes likens the ruling powers on earth to the heavens or to heavenly bodies. For example, the oppressive Babylonian rulers were described as being starlike because they elevated themselves above those around them. (Isaiah 14:12-14) As foretold, the figurative Babylonian “heavens,” or ruling class, and “earth,” the supporters of that rulership, came to an end in 539 B.C.E. (Isaiah 51:6) This allowed repentant Jews to return to Jerusalem, where a “new heavens,” a new ruling body, ruled over “a new earth,” a righteous society of people.—Isaiah 65:17.
The Bible’s words about heaven and earth ‘passing away’ apparently refer to the end of today’s corrupt human governments and their ungodly supporters. (2 Peter 3:7) That will open the way for God’s new heavenly government to bless a righteous new human society, for “there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to [God’s] promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.”—2 Peter 3:13.
Will God himself destroy the earth by fire?
Does 2 Peter 3:7, 10 (KJ) support that view? “The heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition [“destruction,” RS] of ungodly men. . . . The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up [“burned (burnt) up,” RS, JB; “will vanish,” TEV; “will be made manifest,” NAB; “will be laid bare,” NE; “will be discovered,” NW].” (Note: The Codex Sinaiticus and Vatican MS 1209, both of the 4th century C.E., read “be discovered.” Later manuscripts, the 5th-century Codex Alexandrinus and the 16th-century Clementine recension of the Vulgate, read “be burned up.&rdquo😉
Does Revelation 21:1 (KJ) indicate that our planet will be destroyed? “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.”
(((((((((((((((( To be correct, the explanation of these verses must agree with the context and with the rest of the Bible.)))))))))))))))))))
If these texts (2 Peter 3:7, 10 and Revelation 21:1) mean that the literal planet Earth is to be consumed by fire, then the literal heavens (the stars and other heavenly bodies) are also to be destroyed by fire. Such a literal view, however, conflicts with the assurance contained in such texts as Matthew 6:10, Psalm 37:29 and 104:5, also Proverbs 2:21, 22. Furthermore, what effect would fire have on the already intensely hot sun and stars? So the term “earth” in the above-quoted texts must be understood in a different sense.
At Genesis 11:1, First Kings 2:1, 2, First Chronicles 16:31, Psalm 96:1, etc., the term “earth” is used in a figurative sense, referring to mankind, to human society. Might that be the case at 2 Peter 3:7, 10 and Revelation 21:1?
Note that, in the context, at 2 Peter 3:5, 6 (also 2:5, 9), a parallel is drawn with the Flood of Noah’s day, in which wicked human society was destroyed, but Noah and his household, as well as the globe itself, were preserved. Likewise, at 2 Peter 3:7 it says that the ones to be destroyed are “ungodly men.” The view that “the earth” here refers to wicked human society fully agrees with the rest of the Bible, as is illustrated by the texts cited above. It is that symbolic “earth,” or wicked human society, that is “discovered”; that is, Jehovah will sear away as by fire all disguise, exposing the wickedness of ungodly human society and showing it to be worthy of complete destruction. That wicked society of humans is also “the first earth,” referred to at Revelation 21:1 (KJ).
Consistently, Jesus’ expression at Luke 21:33 (“heaven and earth will pass away, but . . . &rdquo😉 must be understood in the light of the parallel statement at Luke 16:17 (“it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than . . . &rdquo😉, both of which simply emphasize the impossibility of the situations presented.—See also Matthew 5:18.
I have identified the woman as what I called "the Universal Bright Woman," if you will, the UBW. She is the totality of God's people on the earth from the age of the patriarchs, the age of the law, and the age of Grace in Christ.
I have identified the Manchild within her, who is to be born from her, as a collective. That is "brothers" - plural of "them" and "they". These are the overcomers.
It is here that some people have doubts about this interpretation. Some seem automatically to understand the Manchild as Jesus Christ. Some go on to identify the Woman as Israel or Mary.
Versess 10 and 11 speak of the brothers and "they" - "them" - "their".
If you believe that the utterance of verses 10 and 11 should refer to something in the chapter, then who or what BEST fits the description of the things said ?
The plural pronouns should not refer to the entire Universal Bright Woman. That is because only a PART of her is raptured to God and to His thone. This selection indicates that PART of her is qualified for this honor and part of her is not. This is not concerning eternal salvation or forgiveness. This is concerning rapture and reigning, for the Manchild reigns -
"And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne." (v.5)
Quite logically, the previledge of rapture and reigning here, is not to the entire body of God's elect. Otherwise the entire Woman should be seen raptured and reigning.
It is proved that the reigning entity here is a particularly honored group because that is precisely what other places in Revelation tell us. Christ is now speaking to the church in Thytira in chapter 2 -
"And he who overcomes and he who keeps My works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; And he will shepherd them with a iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces, AS I ALSO HAVE RECEIVED FROM MY FATHER." (Rev. 2:16,17 my emphasis)
The promise to reign and rule over the nations is to those who OVERCOME. So it is fully logical that the overcomers who "overcame him [Satan the accuser]" in chapter 12 refers to those who overcome - a collective so honored with a particular reward.
Some will protest and say that Christ is the One who rules over the nations with a rod of iron (ie. Rev. 19:15) .
They speak quite correctly that Jesus Christ is the One - "out of His mouth proceeds a sharp sword, that with it he might smite the nations; and He will shepherd the nations with an iron rod ..."
But does Christ shepherd the nations with an iron rod completely alone ? No He does not. For it says in chapter two - " ... to him [the overcomer] I will give authority over the nations; And he [the overcomer] will shepherd them with an iron rod, as vessels of pottery are broken in pieces ..." and the most crucial words - "as I ALSO have received from My Father"
The reigning Manchild is therefore a remnant of believers, a minority of believers so rewarded to be co-kings with Christ.
Before rapture they are simply PART of the Universal Bright Woman. She and they are simply one entity. And the overcomers are not above the rest of the people of God. They are those attaining to a NORMAL condition of victory.
They are not ABOVE the standard of God. They are simple AT the standard of God. It is NORMAL that every believer of God should be victorious and prevailing through the grace of God. And at the close of this age a remnant will be resurrected and raptured early before the whole body of God's people are raptured.
Their rapture is a strategic shift in the balance which causes the kingdom of God to arrive on the earth.
Originally posted by galveston75The New Jerusalem will be brought down from Heaven to the new Earth and that is where Christ's throne on the Earth will be forever.
Well yes in the way where God's heaven is at so to say. So the throne that Jesus is to be sitting on beside his Father is in this 3rd heaven also, as you say?
Originally posted by RJHindsBut the Bible says he will be sitting beside his Father. So will his Father be on earth with him or does the Father stay in heaven?
The New Jerusalem will be brought down from Heaven to the new Earth and that is where Christ's throne on the Earth will be forever.
The raptured Manchild is a stronger component, a remnant, a group of believers throughout world history who were normal in their prevailing victorious cooperation with God.
Now we are told HOW they became overcomers in verses 10 and 11.
This is crucial. They did NOT become overcomers because they never had any failures or mistakes. The utterance is - " And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb" .
First of all, their victorious overcoming is not because of their personal perfection. It is because of the redemption of Christ. When Satan accuses them in thier conscience and before God, the OVERCOME this accusation by standing on the blood of the Lamb.
"Yes. I made a mistake. Yes, I have yet far to go to be a successful Christian. Yes I blew it. Yes, even as an Old Testament saint I made a sin, a transgression.
But I overcome because of God's redemption. God has justified me."
The Old Testament saints had the animal sacrifices and that blood. That blood pointed foward to Christ the Lamb of God which was to come. By faith, they stood on the redemption that was to come.
The New Testament saints have no animal sacrifices as a type. They have the reality of Christ's redemptive death once for all. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanses the sinner from ALL sins.
The invisible sins are cleansed.
The secret sins are cleansed.
The private sins are cleansed.
The public sins are cleansed.
The forgivable sins are cleansed.
The unforgivable sins are cleansed.
The secular sins are cleansed.
The religious sins are cleansed.
The historical sins are cleansed.
All sins are cleansed by Christ's work on Calvary.
Now we can surely say it, Halellujah !!
The blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from ALL sin.
First the overcomers stand on the merit of Christ. They do not stand upon their own merit. They stand trusting fully in the blood of the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
The accusing mouth which says "But Religion spoils Everything, Too many WARS fought by religion. Religious people hold back science and spoil society, etc. etc. etc." is shut by the believers standing upon Christ as their righteousness.
When a man or woman comes to Christ in faith, FIRST OFF they must learn to believe in the effective redemption of Jesus Christ from ALL of their sins. They overcame the accuser by the blood of the Lamb.
This is the FIRST stage only of spiritual victory. It is not the only stage. It is the first stage. Before I go on I repeat the crucial passage showing HOW the overcomers overcame to be co-kings with Christ -
"And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they loved not their soul-life even unto death."
Three things - The Blood of Christ to shut the accusing mouth of the Devil
Speaking and proclaiming the word of their testimony.
Not loving the soul-life even if it should mean death.
I will not quickly move from the Blood of the Lamb. I think I should linger here for another post or two.
"Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the ACCUSER of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night.
And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb ..." (Rev. 12:10,11a)
Originally posted by galveston75Here are the important verses:
Will God himself destroy the earth by fire?
Does 2 Peter 3:7, 10 (KJ) support that view? “The heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition [“destruction,” RS] of ungodly men. . . . The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens s ...[text shortened]... of which simply emphasize the impossibility of the situations presented.—See also Matthew 5:18.
But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
(2 Peter 3:7 NKJV)
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
(2 Peter 3:10 NKJV)
Jesus said, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."
(Matthew 24:35 NKJV)
Surely ungodly men will be burned up in the fire, but notice it says "the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up."
This means not only the heaves will pass away, but every thing in and on the earth will be purged with fire. Viruses must be burned up so there will be no more diseases. It says the elements (iron, gold, silver, copper,etc.) will melt with fervent heat. It seems it must get hot enough to burn up everthing in it if it is able to melt all the elements of the Earth. This gives to much detail to be talking figuratively. Perhaps the other verses you mentioned are figuratively speaking.
I have said that the Manchild is a part, a remnant of the total collective of God's people from all the ages of God working out His plan.
Some still think that the raptured manchild from the woman must be the baby Jesus. I have pointed out the plural pronouns - "they" and "their" and "them" plus the word "brothers" point to the Manchild.
1.) Since it is a remnant that is raptured and participate in the kingship the utterances should not mean the entire Woman.
2.) The other candidates is the angels following Michael.
"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels went to war with the dragon. And the dragon warred and his angels. And they did not prevail, neither was place found for them any longer in heaven.
And the great dragon was cast down, the ancient serpent, he who is called the Devil and Satan ..." (v.7-8a)
The good angels DO prevail there. That is true. Michael and his angels do overcome and prevail against Satan and his angels. HOWEVER they do not do so because of "the blood of the Lamb".
Christ's redemptive death is for MAN. These angels have never sinned. These angels with Michael the angel are not recipients of the redemptive death of Christ.
The only ones who qualify to be overcomers because of the blood of Jesus Christ are sinners among human beings, not angels. So the utterance - "and they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb" should not mean overcoming angels. It should be overcoming human beings for these are redeemed sinners.
The only other candidate is the Manchild then. So the Manchild must be composed of humans. That is humans as believing recipients of the efficatious work of Christ's redeeming death and resurrection.
Originally posted by RJHindshe didn't "fulfill" the old covenant. saying he "fulfilled" it does not make it fulfilled. the old covenant is not something that can be "fulfilled." biblegod enacted it with isaac and it was an unconditional everlasting covenant (genesis 17)
A new covenant can be made without nullifying the old covenants. Actually Christ fulfilled the old covenants and made a new and better one.
http://www.crucialchoices.com/EnglishSite/BelieverPages/OldCovenantFulfill.htm
P.S. Remember He said He had not come to change the law but to fulfill it.
Originally posted by VoidSpiritThis is where you go wrong by not understanding the mission of Christ. Ask jaywill to explain it to you if you are interested.
he didn't "fulfill" the old covenant. saying he "fulfilled" it does not make it fulfilled. the old covenant is not something that can be "fulfilled." biblegod enacted it with isaac and it was an unconditional everlasting covenant (genesis 17)