Rev 12: 1-17

Originally posted by galveston75
I know but I'm wanting to see Manny's explination. If he takes one part of Revelation literally then he has to take it all literally.

But John spells out this interpretation for us in Revelation in terms of stars equaling angels. There is no controversy here.

Originally posted by whodey
Israel rejected God on may occasion in the Bible. However, he never gave up on them, nor will he. He has a covenant and promises to uphold.

Again, the JW doctrine rejects this notion, so don't expect them to bend.

Which covenent is that?

Jesus actually nullified that covenent and placed a new one from his Father with his followers, not the nation as a whole because they turned there backs on God.
This "new Covenent" was only between God and the followers of his son Jesus.

Luke 22:20
Darby Translation (DARBY)

20 In like manner also the cup, after having supped, saying, This cup [is] the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.


Hebrews 8:10
New Living Translation (NLT)

10 But this is the new covenant I will make
with the people of Israel on that day,[a] says the Lord:
I will put my laws in their minds,
and I will write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.


Galatians 3:26-28
New Living Translation (NLT)

26 For you are all children[a] of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 And all who have been united with Christ in baptism have put on Christ, like putting on new clothes.[b] 28 There is no longer Jew or Gentile,[c] slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.

This last scripture shows that all men from all nations will be used by God. The old covenent did not allow that. So the old covenent is void and the Jews as a whole are not approved by God.

Originally posted by menace71
1/3 of the stars Satan took with him I think represents the fallen angels that went with Satan.



Manny

Yes it does, but why not say that? If the Bible writter used those words but did not mean the actual stars, then why by the same writer do we think the real sun and moon and seas are real and will be destroyed?
Sometimes real, sometimes not?

Originally posted by whodey
Spot on. In fact, science tells us that the entire universe will dwindle down to nothing everntually Then God has a new canvass to work with again.

I think from the JW perspective, their theology dictates that the current earth will last forever. Correct me if I'm wrong here JW's.

Scientist think that but what does God say? That's the point here.

Originally posted by galveston75
Which covenent is that?

Jesus actually nullified that covenent and placed a new one from his Father with his followers, not the nation as a whole because they turned there backs on God.
This "new Covenent" was only between God and the followers of his son Jesus.

Luke 22:20
Darby Translation (DARBY)

20 In like manner also the cup, after hav ...[text shortened]... d not allow that. So the old covenent is void and the Jews as a whole are not approved by God.

As I pointed out, Israel rejected God on numerous times in the OT but he never gave up on them. Somehow Jesus LAYING DOWN HIS LIFE on a cross somehow changes all that I suppose.

Originally posted by whodey
As I pointed out, Israel rejected God on numerous times in the OT but he never gave up on them. Somehow Jesus LAYING DOWN HIS LIFE on a cross somehow changes all that I suppose.

Ok, that's your viewpoint. Thanks.

Originally posted by galveston75
Which covenent is that?

Jesus actually nullified that covenent and placed a new one from his Father with his followers, not the nation as a whole because they turned there backs on God.
This "new Covenent" was only between God and the followers of his son Jesus.

Luke 22:20
Darby Translation (DARBY)

20 In like manner also the cup, after hav ...[text shortened]... d not allow that. So the old covenent is void and the Jews as a whole are not approved by God.

A new covenant can be made without nullifying the old covenants. Actually Christ fulfilled the old covenants and made a new and better one.

http://www.crucialchoices.com/EnglishSite/BelieverPages/OldCovenantFulfill.htm

P.S. Remember He said He had not come to change the law but to fulfill it.

Originally posted by galveston75
I know but I'm wanting to see Manny's explination. If he takes one part of Revelation literally then he has to take it all literally.

Someday I would like to hear people's views on the idea that if you take one part literally you have to take everything literally.

Originally posted by JS357
Someday I would like to hear people's views on the idea that if you take one part literally you have to take everything literally.

That is a good point. As I said earlier the Bible was written in a way that it has to be searched out with insight and understanding from God. If these things we've been discussing are literal, then they would have been written that way. Why the mysteries? But God has stated clearly that only certian ones can understand and that is because he lets them. The Bible indicates that most will not get that insight from God.
Then one needs to "prove scripture with scripture". That means if there is something being said in the Bible and we are confused about it, then we need to search the Bible to see if there is another scripture or set of scriptures that would clearify it for us.
If we read a scripture that we (think) says to "kill our neighbor" but then another scripture says to "love your neighbor" then we have a problem. The scripture that we (think) says to kill our neighbor must not be saying that as the Bible would be contradicting itself.
So if we read a scripture that is in the middle of many scriptures that says "the earth will be destroyed and a new one will be created" and all those surrounding scriptures are speaking with unearthly signs and descriptions of gold streets and a 345 mile high city and but then other scriptures in the Bible say "the earth will stand forever" and this was said before that other statement in Revelation, then we have a problem. We now have a contradiction.
So one would need to seek out the truth and this is done by asking God for that insight and not going on our own opinion.

Originally posted by JS357
Someday I would like to hear people's views on the idea that if you take one part literally you have to take everything literally.

Jesus spoke in parables and those are in the Holy Bible. So obviously, everything is not to be taken literally. The Book of Revelation is prophecy and the meaning must be interpreted. Those beasts are not literal beasts but represent something like beasts.

Originally posted by galveston75
That is a good point. As I said earlier the Bible was written in a way that it has to be searched out with insight and understanding from God. If these things we've been discussing are literal, then they would have been written that way. Why the mysteries? But God has stated clearly that only certian ones can understand and that is because he lets them. ...[text shortened]... uth and this is done by asking God for that insight and not going on our own opinion.

“For behold, the day is coming,
Burning like an oven,
And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.
And the day which is coming shall burn them up,”
Says the Lord of hosts
(Malachi 4:1 NKJV

But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
(2 Peter 3:7 NKJV)

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
(2 Peter 3:10 NKJV)

Jesus said, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."
(Matthew 24:35 NKJV)

I think a new Earth will be made from the melted elements of the old Earth that has passed away or burnt up by the fire. Then the New Jerusalem that has been made in Heaven will be brought down to this new eternal Earth that has been created from the purified elements of the old Earth.

Taken from www.biblegateway.com


2 Peter 3


A New Heaven and Earth

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

So now we have Rev 21 & 2 Peter saying something similar how do we take this G-man? literally or otherwise ?

Manny

Originally posted by menace71
Taken from www.biblegateway.com


2 Peter 3


A New Heaven and Earth

10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ...[text shortened]... 2 Peter saying something similar how do we take this G-man? literally or otherwise ?

Manny

Well, what do ya know. Science says that the sun will expand and engulf the earth someday as well.

Doh!!

Originally posted by whodey
Well, what do ya know. Science says that the sun will expand and engulf the earth someday as well.

Doh!!

Actually, although scientists used to say this, those that are up-to-date no longer says this will definitely happen!
When the scientists originally tried to calculate the fate of the Earth when our sun expands, they forgot to take into account that the sun is constantly loosing mass and thus its gravity will get less. The lower gravity would mean the orbits of the planets including that of the earth will get wider and thus the Earth will orbit farther away from the sun and might escape being engulfed.

However, either way, Earth will still get a good roasting and any life still there on Earth would still be doomed.

Originally posted by menace71
I mostly agree with you except the women diffidently represents Israel which can be said to be God's people




Manny

I mostly agree with you except the women diffidently represents Israel which can be said to be God's people

There are those who restrict the symbolism of the Woman to Israel. I do not. I can only present some reasons. You do not have to agree with them.

Consider that the children of the Woman really are not PLUS the Woman but are OF the Woman.

"And the dragon became angry with the woman and went away to make war with the rest of her seed, ..." (v.17)

Now we should consider "her seed" as really PART of her. Do you agree? The symbolism, I think, is that "her seed" are themselves members of herself.

So then the question is what is the identify of "her seed" ? The identity is given in the same verse:

" ... the dragon ... to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus." (v.17)

I submit that the language suggests:

1.) Israel's Jews - "who keep the commandments of God"

2.) Saints of the new covenant church - "and have the testimony of Jesus".

The meaning, I believe is the "seed", the "rest of her seed", who were not raptured and remained upon earth, is constituted with the Jews of Israel and the believers of the new covenant, Christians.

We should remember that Christians, would not mean "Gentiles" here. Christians would mean Jews and Gentiles brought into faith in Christ.

Again, the identity of the "rest of her seed" is composed of law commandment keepers AND those "who have the testimony of Jesus". I think the best understanding is Israel and the new covenant Christians.

I have written nothing about other features of the chapter yet.