05 Jun 12
Originally posted by galveston75It is my understanding that the throne on Earth is for Christ the Son of God and the Father will retain His throne in Heaven, but I am not sure of that.
That didn't answr my question. Will God, Jesus's Father, be sitting on his throne beside his son down here on earth?
05 Jun 12
1 edit
Originally posted by RJHindsSo there will be a time when Jesus leaves the throne that is beside his Father in heaven and will come down to earth to a second throne?
It is my understanding that the throne on Earth is for Christ the Son of God and the Father will retain His throne in Heaven, but I am not sure of that.
Could you post the scriptures that says this as all the scriptures I can find on Jesus sitting on a throne are all in heaven beside his Father? No where can I find it stated that he will leave his Father and come to sit on a second throne.
05 Jun 12
Originally posted by galveston75I posted those scriptures already. Don't you remember where the angel tells Mary that the son to be born to her will inherit the throne of David in Jerusalem? But Christ did not become King at His first coming, but He will on His second coming for then He will be King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Christ's eternal throne along with the thrones for His disciples will be in the New Jerusalem that is not presently of this world, but will be brought down from Heaven to be placed on the new Earth.
So there will be a time when Jesus leaves the throne that is beside his Father in heaven and will come down to earth to a second throne?
Could you post the scriptures that says this as all the scriptures I can find on Jesus sitting on a throne are all in heaven beside his Father? No where can I find it stated that he will leave his Father and come to sit on a second throne.
05 Jun 12
Originally posted by RJHindsSo will Jesus be by himself or will anyone be with him?
I posted those scriptures already. Don't you remember where the angel tells Mary that the son to be born to her will inherit the throne of David in Jerusalem? But Christ did not become King at His first coming, but He will on His second coming for then He will be King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Christ's eternal throne along with the thrones for His disci ...[text shortened]... t presently of this world, but will be brought down from Heaven to be placed on the new Earth.
06 Jun 12
3 edits
Originally posted by galveston75
Sorry Jaywill but you just completely lost me here. But going back to those verses it says she gives birth. I don't understand how this description lines up with the birth she has of the lamb who is Jesus but not in a literal sence. As you said this is not speaking of Mary at all. This cannot of course be a real person because of all the other descriptio ...[text shortened]... is term you used the "Universal Woman of Light" I've never seen. Where do you get that from?
Sorry Jaywill but you just completely lost me here. But going back to those verses it says she gives birth.
The giving birth there means resurrection. Prior to the rapture (being caught up to God and to His throne) this Manchild must be resurrected. That resurrection is considered a birth.
In the same way Jesus the Only Begotten Son of God was the Firstborn in resurrection others following Him in a voctorious resurrection are also "born".
Again, Christ's resurrection is also said to be His birth - "He is the beginning, the Firstborn from the dead ..." (Colossians 1:18)
When Christ resurrected from the dead He brought in a NEW humanity. Of that new humanity He is the Firstborn. This is not to be confused with another "Firstborn" Christ is "of all creation". The same expression "Firstborn" is used by Paul for two different matters:
1.) "Who [Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation." (Col 1:15)
2.) "And He is the Head of the Body, the church; He is the beginning, the Firstborn from the dead ..." (Col. 1:18)
Christ's resurrection was also His BIRTH as the Firstborn from the dead - the Head of the Body of Christ, the church. This is a new beginning of a new humanity.
Then there are those of His overcomers who follow Him in this victorious kind of resurrection. And it is this following of the Head Christ, the "Firstborn" which is the meaning of the Woman giving BIRTH to a Manchild.
It means they are resurrected following their overcoming Firstborn Son of God in His resurrection.
RESURRECTION PLUS RAPTURE - is the meaning of - "And she brought forth a son, a man-child, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne." (v.5)
"Brought forth" here signifies resurrection, as in Acts 13:33-34.
"That God has fully fulfilled this promise to us their children in raising up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, "You are My Son; this day I have begotten You."
And as His having raised Him up from the dead, no longer to return to corruption, He spoke in this way, " I will give you the holy things of David, the faithful things." (Acts 13:33,34)
The Apostle Peter here applies the Second Psalm not to Christ birth from Mary but to His being raised from the dead. The day of Christ's resurrection is "this day". And on "this day" Christ is BEGOTTEN. That means His resurrection is a BIRTH.
Based upon this truth, you must see that the begetting of the corporate Manchild is also its BIRTH. It is the Manchild's BIRTH as the earliest many born, following the Firstborn.
I stop here. The begetting of the Manchild from the Woman, the Universal Bright Woman (as I said) is a RESURRECTION PLUS RAPTURE of a remnant of those who OVERCAME from among the totality of God's people. This will happen shortly before the Great Tribulation.
The other comments I may address below.
06 Jun 12
Originally posted by jaywillThanks. But to clearify who again is the "man child'?Sorry Jaywill but you just completely lost me here. But going back to those verses it says she gives birth.
The giving birth there means [b] resurrection. Prior to the rapture (being caught up to God and to His throne) this Manchild must be resurrected. That resurrection is considered a birth.
In the same way Jesus the ...[text shortened]... eat Tribulation.
The other comments I may address below.[/b]
06 Jun 12
2 edits
Originally posted by galveston75
Thanks. But to clearify who again is the "man child'?
Thanks. But to clearify who again is the "man child'?
The Manchild is a corporate entity. He is a corporate entity of overcomers.
You see woman there in the chapter stands for the weaker part.
And "manchild" stands for the stronger part.
Within the whole body of God's people there is the stronger ones who overcome. Specifically, in chapter 12 the overcomers "loved not their soul-life even unto DEATH" This should mean that they had DIED. For they loved not their soul life even UNTO death.
Though the principle of overcoming is good for all ages, this specific Manchild is the overcomers of the Old Testament and New Testament ages who DIED in thier faithfulness to the Lord God and Christ. For they loved not their soul-life even UNTO DEATH.
So their RESURRECTION and RAPTURE is a reward for their overcoming and is also considered a BIRTH in the same way that Christ overcame through His Father and was the First BORN from the dead .
A group of people, towards the end of this age, who have died in the past, and who were overcomers - victorious in God, will be resurrected and raptured BEFORE the three and one half years of the great tribulation. This group is the Manchild in Revelation 12.
The travailing in birth of the Universal Bright Woman and "being in pain to bring forth" signifes that throughout all generations God's people have been suffering the travail of DELIVERY -
See Isaiah 26:17-18; Jeremiah 6:24; 13:21; 30:6; Micah 4:9-10; 5:3; Galatians 4:19.
All these passages use the metaphor of birth or delivery to show some of God's people struggling in cooperation with God to overcome and FIGHT for God's kingdom.
They are considered a collective fighting unit though they be scattered over many generations. Towards the end of this age this remnant will be resurrected and raptured. That is a crucial turning point in the spiritual warfare.
The child in the Woman means the stronger part of God's people. Throughout all generations there are some stronger ones among God's people. That is strong not in themselves but through God and through cooperation with the faithful God.
The crying out of the Woman probably means PRAYER. For the Manchild is really the result of much petition and crying out to God by God's people in PRAYER over the generations.
06 Jun 12
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75
Any ideas what the 1,260 days refer to in verse 6?
Any ideas what the 1,260 days refer to in verse 6?
The great tribulation of three and one half years is the meaning of 1,260 days. That is the final three and one half years before the beginning of the millennial kingdom of 1,000 years.
06 Jun 12
Now a word about the word "overcomers".
This word I have not been able to find per se in the Bible. The closest thing to it is "more than conquer" used by Paul in Romans 8.
"But in all these things we more than conquer through Him who loved us." (Rom. 8:37)
We may say that all Christians are called to more than conquer. And to be normal is to be a more than conquerer or an overcomer.
Though we do not see the word "overcomer" or "overcomers" in the New Testament we do have a repetition of the phrase "he who overcomes" .
In the 7 letters from Christ to the seven churches in Asia, in chapters 2 and 3, each letter ends with a promise to the ones who OVERCOME. See Rev.2:7, 11,17, 26; 3:5, 12, 21.
We can see the importance of the theme of OVERCOMING in the seven letters. And elsewhere in the New Testament we have the matter of overcoming mentioned.
The theme of reward to he who overcomes repeated seven times in chapters 2 and 3 has to be tied to the overcomers who constituted the Manchild in Revelation 12. The principle is the same. The victorious believer receives this reward in ADDITION to the Gift of eternal life.
Part of that reward is being a co-king with Christ to shepherd the nations during the 1,000 year millennial kingdom.
Any questions on this ?
06 Jun 12
Originally posted by jaywillI concur with this seems logical and I did not think about the seed of the WomenI mostly agree with you except the women diffidently represents Israel which can be said to be God's people
There are those who restrict the symbolism of the Woman to Israel. I do not. I can only present some reasons. You do not have to agree with them.
Consider that the children of the Woman really are not PLUS the Woman but are ...[text shortened]... ]
I have written nothing about other features of the chapter yet.
Manny
06 Jun 12
Originally posted by galveston75God can be everywhere at once but Heaven is where God is so yes. I think you can't see beyond this world at all. God is not bound by physicality but our feeble fleshly minds try to put God in a box. He will be among His people and that is where Heaven will be.
That didn't answr my question. Will God, Jesus's Father, be sitting on his throne beside his son down here on earth?
Manny