Rev 12: 1-17

In the Bible, “earth” does not always refer to our globe. For instance, Psalm 96:1 says literally: ‘Sing to Jehovah, all the earth.’ We know that our planet—the terra firma and the vast oceans—cannot sing. People sing. Yes, Psalm 96:1 is referring to the people on the earth. But Isaiah 65:17 also mentions “new heavens.” If the “earth” represents a new society of people in the Jews’ homeland, what are the “new heavens”?
The Cyclopædia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, by M’Clintock and Strong, states: “Wherever the scene of a prophetic vision is laid, heaven signifies . . . the whole assembly of the ruling powers . . . being over and ruling the subjects, as the natural heaven stands over and rules the earth.” As to the combination phrase “heaven and earth,” the Cyclopædia explains that ‘in prophetic language the phrase signifies the political condition of persons of different ranks. The heaven is the sovereignty; the earth is the peasantry, men who are ruled by superiors.’

Intersting comments about the "heavens and the earth" and there position to each other. Also the earth does not always refer to the actual planet in the Bible.

Isaiah 65:17-19
Today's New International Version (TNIV)

New Heavens and a New Earth
17 “See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.

When did this prophecy originaly apply? Was an actual "new heavens and new earth happen then"?

Originally posted by galveston75
Isaiah 65:17-19
Today's New International Version (TNIV)

New Heavens and a New Earth
17 “See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a ...[text shortened]... hen did this prophecy originaly apply? Was an actual "new heavens and new earth happen then"?

With all due respect G-man your twisting what Rev 21 reads
There is really no other way to interpret Rev 21:1 ------




Manny

Originally posted by menace71
With all due respect G-man your twisting what Rev 21 reads
There is really no other way to interpret Rev 21:1 ------




Manny

Ok that's fine. But Jaywill had his own twist, so who is right? Is this open for just anyones opinion or is there a correct answer?

Originally posted by galveston75
Ok that's fine. But Jaywill had his own twist, so who is right? Is this open for just anyones opinion or is there a correct answer?

I think J-WILL and I are more in agreement than not.
I think but we can ask if he believes in a literal fulfillment of the new Jerusalem or not?


Manny

PS: Rev 21 states that some event is going to occur

Originally posted by menace71
G-man I don't truly know but this is what the bible says and your right God will dwell in this new Jerusalem and his light will shine through out his whole creation. I think the main reason God is going to create a new heavens is because this whole present creation is cursed. Entropy is one of the curses. The curse of death. The new heavens will no longer ...[text shortened]... . I do think there will be a merging of heaven and earth in this new heavens however.

Manny

Spot on. In fact, science tells us that the entire universe will dwindle down to nothing everntually Then God has a new canvass to work with again.

I think from the JW perspective, their theology dictates that the current earth will last forever. Correct me if I'm wrong here JW's.

Revelation 12:4
New Living Translation (NLT)

4 His tail swept away one-third of the "stars" in the sky, and he threw them to the earth. He stood in front of the woman as she was about to give birth, ready to devour her baby as soon as it was born.


Just a question but if we are to take that the sun and moon and seas are to be done away with literally, should we take this scripture in Revelation literally? Did Satan indeed take a third of the stars with him when he was cast down to earth?

Originally posted by galveston75
Sorry Jaywill but you just completely lost me here. But going back to those verses it says she gives birth. I don't understand how this description lines up with the birth she has of the lamb who is Jesus but not in a literal sence. As you said this is not speaking of Mary at all. This cannot of course be a real person because of all the other descriptio ...[text shortened]... is term you used the "Universal Woman of Light" I've never seen. Where do you get that from?

I'm with Menace. The woman is the nation of Israel that produced the Messiah and the 12 stars are symbolic of not only the 12 tribes but the 12 apostles. Then shortly after the death of Jesus and his ressurection, Israel is scattered among the nations, or fleeing into the wilderness.

Originally posted by galveston75
Revelation 12:4
New Living Translation (NLT)

4 His tail swept away one-third of the "stars" in the sky, and he threw them to the earth. He stood in front of the woman as she was about to give birth, ready to devour her baby as soon as it was born.


Just a question but if we are to take that the sun and moon and seas are to be done away with lite ...[text shortened]... literally? Did Satan indeed take a third of the stars with him when he was cast down to earth?

The stars represent angels. Satan took a third of the angels with him in his revolt.

Originally posted by menace71
Ok thanks. But look at these scriptures and see if the literal Israel is still in God's favour. Remember, they never accepted Jesus as the messiah and were behind his death..


7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

Wh ...[text shortened]... d their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!

Manny

Israel rejected God on may occasion in the Bible. However, he never gave up on them, nor will he. He has a covenant and promises to uphold.

Again, the JW doctrine rejects this notion, so don't expect them to bend.

Originally posted by whodey
Spot on. In fact, science tells us that the entire universe will dwindle down to nothing everntually Then God has a new canvass to work with again.

I think from the JW perspective, their theology dictates that the current earth will last forever. Correct me if I'm wrong here JW's.

Psalm 104:5
King James Version (KJV)

5 "Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever".

This is David speaking of God who made the earth and it cleary says it will never be removed.

The Bible is inspired and approved by God. If this were not the truth of the earth, then David was lying and God is a hypocrite.

Also the Bible assures us that Jehovah God will not allow the earth to be destroyed or rendered uninhabitable.
As Creator, he has limitless “dynamic energy,” so he can sustain the universe indefinitely. (Isaiah 40:26)
We can put faith in these words: “[God] has founded the earth upon its established places; it will not be made to totter to time indefinite, or forever.” “Praise him, you sun and moon. Praise him, all you stars of light. . . . For he himself commanded, and they were created. And he keeps them standing forever.”—Psalm 104:5; 148:3-6.

So by these scriptures it shows God's view on the earth. Not one scripture in the Bible says he will let it be destroyed, ever.
The earth is a perfect place for life to live. There is nothing wrong with it. It is the wicked that will be destroyed and removed. The Bible says clearly the "meek will inherit the earth". No where does it say it will be on a replaced planet.
If God is willing to destroy the earth, he would have done that instead of the flood that he used to cleanse the earth. But he didn't and never will destroy this planet.

Originally posted by whodey
The stars represent angels. Satan took a third of the angels with him in his revolt.

I know but I'm wanting to see Manny's explination. If he takes one part of Revelation literally then he has to take it all literally.

Originally posted by galveston75
Isaiah 65:17-19
Today's New International Version (TNIV)

New Heavens and a New Earth
17 “See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a ...[text shortened]... hen did this prophecy originaly apply? Was an actual "new heavens and new earth happen then"?

No, it is for the time of the end after this old earth is destroyed by fire and the elements melt by the sudden heat. This new earth is the one that will remain forever. This old corruptible body will pass away and we will be given new incorruptible bodies that will last forever just like the new Earth.

Originally posted by galveston75
Psalm 104:5
King James Version (KJV)

5 "Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever".

This is David speaking of God who made the earth and it cleary says it will never be removed.

The Bible is inspired and approved by God. If this were not the truth of the earth, then David was lying and God is a hypocrite.
...[text shortened]... flood that he used to cleanse the earth. But he didn't and never will destroy this planet.

Revelation 21:1 claerly says that the old earth passed away. Of course, you are free to interpret this how you like, or I should say, how the Watchtower interprets it.

Originally posted by galveston75
Revelation 12:4
New Living Translation (NLT)

4 His tail swept away one-third of the "stars" in the sky, and he threw them to the earth. He stood in front of the woman as she was about to give birth, ready to devour her baby as soon as it was born.


Just a question but if we are to take that the sun and moon and seas are to be done away with lite ...[text shortened]... literally? Did Satan indeed take a third of the stars with him when he was cast down to earth?

1/3 of the stars Satan took with him I think represents the fallen angels that went with Satan.



Manny