1. Account suspended
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    09 May '12 09:521 edit
    "There is an over-representation [of Asian men] amongst recent convictions in the
    crime of on-street grooming [and] there should be no silence in addressing the
    issue of race
    as this is central to the actions of these criminals," he said.

    "They think that white teenage girls are worthless and can be abused without a
    second thought; it is this sort of behaviour that is bringing shame on our community."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-17996245

    This case has raised so many issues in my mind that i dont really know where to
    begin, however at each turn it became apparent that the problems were caused by a
    complete lack of spirituality which then escalated into horrendous crimes. Ill try to
    present my questions in as clear a manner as possible.

    1. Is there any basis for concluding that race could have been a contributing factor?
    If so what evidence exists for it?
    2. Is there any basis that Islamic teaching could be partially or wholly responsible
    for fomenting such an attitude (All the perpetrators were Muslims), if so, what
    evidence exists for it.
    3.Is there any basis for stating that the parents of the victims are at least partially
    responsible for failing to protect their children from harmful and dangerous
    individuals.

    If anyone knows anything about it or has any thoughts i would appreciate it for the
    matter has plagued me for some time.
  2. Cape Town
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    09 May '12 10:44
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    1. Is there any basis for concluding that race could have been a contributing factor?
    If a lack of respect for girls is the real reason why it happened, then the root problem (or one of the causes) is a cultural one. Although culture often has a strong correlation with race, it is an error to equate them or think that there is a causal relationship between the two. So not, race is not a contributing factor if the above was the case. However, if it is 'lack of respect for girls of other races' then race may be a contributing factor- but not so much a case of 'some races are bad' but more a case of 'people often value members of other races lower than those of their own race'.

    2. Is there any basis that Islamic teaching could be partially or wholly responsible
    for fomenting such an attitude (All the perpetrators were Muslims), if so, what
    evidence exists for it.

    Culture and religion tend to interact quite strongly. But it can be difficult or impossible to define a causal relationship of this nature unless the religion has specific teachings on the matter. My own observation is that people tend to use religion to back up their cultural values and defend their prejudices etc rather than the religion itself causing the prejudices. However a religion may still make it easy or difficult to do so.
  3. Standard memberfinnegan
    GENS UNA SUMUS
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    09 May '12 12:01
    Following the exposition of widespread abuse, and toleration of abuse, among Catholic Priests, or the systematic abuse in Welsh childrens' care homes, or in Jersey's orphanage, I wonder if there is a common factor between these and the Rochdale crew?

    Oh yes there is. Men.

    If anything beneficial is to come out of this degrading story, maybe it is that people of every religious and national community have to accept their share of responsibility in the oppression of women. It can happen in our community [whover "we" are ] as readily as in any other community and guess what - it does.

    In any event, while it may in this case have been men of Islamic faith and Pakistani origin that were responsible for the acts of abuse, it was neglected and uncared for young girls of the local white community who appear to have been the readily acccessible victims. Maybe the story has more to do with the poverty and neglect of the girls than the opportunistic crimes of the men who preyed on them.

    But let's evade that and misuse the events to foster racist and islamahobic agitation.
  4. Joined
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    09 May '12 12:372 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    "There is an over-representation [of Asian men] amongst recent convictions in the
    crime of on-street grooming [and] there should be no silence [b]in addressing the
    issue of race
    as this is central to the actions of these criminals," he said.

    "They think that white teenage girls are worthless and can be abused without a
    second thought; it it or has any thoughts i would appreciate it for the
    matter has plagued me for some time.[/b]
    at each turn it became apparent that the problems were caused by a
    complete lack of spirituality which then escalated into horrendous crimes.


    No, if what you mean by “spirituality” necessarily involves religion and if the evidence does 'show' that the is a causal link between spirituality and crime then the evidence shows, if anything, spirituality causes horrendous crimes and the lack of spirituality reduces the instances of crime.
    This is partly because, for starters, all the most infamous known murders throughout history were religious including Hitler and most of the Nazis. Also statistical analysis has clearly shown that theists are more likely to be caught committing a crime than atheists -just look at the statistics for yourself:

    http://www.atheismresource.com/2010/atheist-dont-commit-as-much-crime-as-the-religious-do

    Some people argue that is because atheists are better at getting away with it because atheists are, on average, more intelligent than theists and statistical analysis clearly shows atheists have, on average, higher average IQs although that doesn't necessarily mean that is the correct explanation for, in science, a mere correlation must not be confused with a cause and effect. But there is also statistical evidence that the average IQ of a convicted criminal is below average:

    http://www.thephora.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-20594.html

    http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Criminal+intellects%3A+researchers+look+at+why+lawbreakers+often...-a016886298

    “...
    Intelligence deficits make up one of the most firmly established characteristics of criminal offenders as a whole. Research consistently places the average IQ of convicted lawbreakers at 92, some 8 points below the population average and 10 points below the average for law-abiding folks. Available data also suggest that offenders who get away with their crimes fare no better on intelligence tests than those who get nabbed and convicted.

    IQ scores often dip most sharply for serious, repeat offenders, a small set of primarily young men who commit a majority of all crimes.

    At the same time, youngsters being raised by abusive, unstable parents or living in crime-ridden neighborhoods who nevertheless refrain from delinquency often have above-average IQs.
    ...”

    This evidence is fully consistent with atheists committing less crime because atheists have higher IQs on average.


    robbie carrobie

    Via the above links, I have shown there is statistic evidence that arguably is evidence that the exact opposite of your above claim is true ( i.e. the opposite of “at each turn it became apparent that the problems were caused by a complete lack of spirituality which then escalated into horrendous crimes. “ is true ) .
    you say in the above claim that “at each turn it became apparent ...” -well, HOW does this come “ apparent”?
    Can you show us links showing actual relevant statistical evidence with actual numerical values showing ( like in my links ) and based on properly conducted studies but showing your claim to be “ apparent”-ly true or at least likely true? ...take your time....
  5. Joined
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    09 May '12 12:54
    "Spirituality" is such a vague word, meaning different things to different people, therefore I don't think you can even talk in terms of "lacking in spirituality" without precisely defining what is meant by it.
  6. Joined
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    09 May '12 13:11
    Originally posted by lausey
    "Spirituality" is such a vague word, meaning different things to different people, therefore I don't think you can even talk in terms of "lacking in spirituality" without precisely defining what is meant by it.
    I entirely agree with that statement. Which is why I was careful to insert the word “if” in my quote in my last post where I said “... if what you mean by “spirituality” necessarily involves religion ...” (my emphasis)
  7. Account suspended
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    09 May '12 13:381 edit
    Originally posted by humy
    at each turn it became apparent that the problems were caused by a
    complete lack of spirituality which then escalated into horrendous crimes.


    No, if what you mean by “spirituality” necessarily involves religion and if the evidence does 'show' that the is a causal link between spirituality and crime then the evidence shows, if anything, s y consistent with atheists committing less crime because atheists have higher IQs on average.
    clearly you dont know anything, please take a look at the demographics of the
    worlds worst atrocities

    http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm

    If I had simply picked 25 countries out of a hat, I could not have gotten a more
    diverse spread than we've got here. We've got rich countries and poor countries;
    industrial and agrarian; big and small. We've got people of all colors -- white, black,
    yellow and brown -- widely represented among both the slaughterers and the
    slaughterees. We've got Christians, Moslems, Buddhists and Atheists all butchering
    one another in the name of their various gods or lack thereof. Among the
    perpetrators, we've got political leanings of the left, right and middle; some are
    monarchies; some are dictatorships and some are even democracies. We've got
    innocent victims invaded by big, bad neighbors, and we've got plenty of countries
    who brought it on themselves, sowing the wind and reaping the whirlwind.

    Now if view of this what are we to make of your statement, for example, 'all the
    most infamous known murders throughout history were religious'? that is correct it is
    an ignorant and a biased statement, according to the data and this is no place for
    either the ignorant nor the biased for we are interested in truth. Clearly you are
    someone who believes their own propaganda as is evidenced by this latest offering
    of anti religion and bigoted diatribe. I mean you no animosity Humy, but please turn
    up the tone.
  8. Account suspended
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    09 May '12 14:002 edits
    Originally posted by lausey
    "Spirituality" is such a vague word, meaning different things to different people, therefore I don't think you can even talk in terms of "lacking in spirituality" without precisely defining what is meant by it.
    If i can explain it this way, I read somewhere that the difference between spirituality
    and say philosophy appears to be that spirituality advocates a way of doing things
    where philosophy merely attempts to understand those things, thus while in
    philosophy we have the discussion of morality its content to leave it at that without
    actually advocating a particular course of action, whereas in spirituality we are
    concerned with actions, the adherent is recommended to follow a course of action,
    thus, after thinking about this incident it appeared to me that a lack of morality was
    responsible at every turn, and thus a lack of spirituality, for spirituality is concerned
    with right action. Thus the men who were responsible for the heinous crimes lacked
    spirituality or right motive as is evidenced by their actions.

    The girls actions themselves is much more difficult to define, how could they let
    themselves become prey to such thoroughly despicable individuals? If someone
    plies you with drink is it really possible that they are doing so out of the goodness of
    their hearts, how are we to understand that the girls did not realise that they were
    being taken advantage of? was it as a result of a lack of guidance in their lives, why
    did they lack the wisdom to act discreetly? for what is wisdom but the application of
    knowledge? who sends their daughters out without inculcating in them the dangers
    of alcohol? The dangers of strangers? How could the girls be so ill equipped so as
    not to sense danger? This has really bothered me and i find it thoroughly heart
    wrenching to think that such young and vulnerable girls should have been so
    neglected so as to lack wisdom, thus it became apparent that this too was as a
    result of the neglect of spirituality or right action, right action on the part of the girls
    parents to warn them of the dangers and to equip them for life.
  9. Joined
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    09 May '12 14:05
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Following the exposition of widespread abuse, and toleration of abuse, among Catholic Priests, or the systematic abuse in Welsh childrens' care homes, or in Jersey's orphanage, I wonder if there is a common factor between these and the Rochdale crew?

    Oh yes there is. Men.

    If anything beneficial is to come out of this degrading story, maybe it is tha ...[text shortened]...

    But let's evade that and misuse the events to foster racist and islamahobic agitation.
    I believe that girls in or from local authority care were also over represented in this case so clearly there are questions to be answered in terms of parenting and aftercare.

    However to pretend that there is not a racist aspect to this crime when the victims were exclusively white and the perpetrators were exclusively of Pakistani origin is stretching political correctness to breaking point. I wonder in your heart of hearts if you would have posted the same response if the racial identities of the victims and perpetrators had been reversed.

    Clearly; Racial, Cultural, Social, and Religious factors were probably active in these men developing the pathological psychology's that were displayed by the committing of these crimes, but to lay it at the doors of the y chromosome of the criminals and the lax parenting and poverty of the victims families borders on the offensive.
  10. Account suspended
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    09 May '12 14:09
    Originally posted by finnegan
    Following the exposition of widespread abuse, and toleration of abuse, among Catholic Priests, or the systematic abuse in Welsh childrens' care homes, or in Jersey's orphanage, I wonder if there is a common factor between these and the Rochdale crew?

    Oh yes there is. Men.

    If anything beneficial is to come out of this degrading story, maybe it is tha ...[text shortened]...

    But let's evade that and misuse the events to foster racist and islamahobic agitation.
    what was rather noteworthy was the BBC and the police clambering over themselves to
    reassure us that race was not an issue, yet we have a member of the immediate
    community claiming that it was an issue. It must be a liberals nightmare scenario.
  11. Account suspended
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    09 May '12 14:14
    Originally posted by kevcvs57
    I believe that girls in or from local authority care were also over represented in this case so clearly there are questions to be answered in terms of parenting and aftercare.

    However to pretend that there is not a racist aspect to this crime when the victims were exclusively white and the perpetrators were exclusively of Pakistani origin is stretching p ...[text shortened]... e criminals and the lax parenting and poverty of the victims families borders on the offensive.
    I am going to give this a thumbs up for despite the fact that you have been particularly
    horrible to me you make some excellent points and said what i would have liked to say
    but could not form the words.
  12. Joined
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    09 May '12 14:33
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    I am going to give this a thumbs up for despite the fact that you have been particularly
    horrible to me you make some excellent points and said what i would have liked to say
    but could not form the words.
    Thank you for that Robbie but i think you will have to agree that as far as being horrible goes you can more than hold your own 😉

    As for the issue; I have been anticipating the actions of us liberals when attempting to negotiate this without appearing a bit bnp, but we just have to bite the bullet on this one, Asian people can be just as racist and contemptible as White people.

    I am pretty sure that this is the first time I have disagreed with 'finnegan' but these issues should be devisive.

    P.s have given you a thumbs up for being 'the big man' and for starting the link with an open mind/question.
  13. Joined
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    09 May '12 20:052 edits
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    clearly you dont know anything, please take a look at the demographics of the
    worlds worst atrocities

    http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm

    If I had simply picked 25 countries out of a hat, I could not have gotten a more
    diverse spread than we've got here. We've got rich countries and poor countries;
    industrial and agrarian; big and ion and bigoted diatribe. I mean you no animosity Humy, but please turn
    up the tone.
    clearly you dont know anything, please take a look at the demographics of the
    worlds worst atrocities

    http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm


    Don't know what point you are trying to make here with that link. Have you actually looked at that link?
    It clearly lists atrocities that are known to be mainly caused by theists and NOT, in the main, atheists. Do you deny that, for example, Hitler was a theist? Or most of the Nazis were theist?

    The rest of your post is irrelevant because it doesn't do anything to contradict nor argue against the statistical fact that I demonstrated via the links in my last post that most crime is caused by theists and atheists are statistically less likely to commit crime or commit atrocities such as murder etc. Statistically, it is theists like you that are more likely to commit atrocities as shown by my previous links I just gave so stop being dishonest.
  14. Account suspended
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    09 May '12 20:313 edits
    Originally posted by humy
    clearly you dont know anything, please take a look at the demographics of the
    worlds worst atrocities

    http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm


    Don't know what point you are trying to make here with that link. Have you actually looked at that link?
    It clearly lists atrocities that are known to be mainly caused by theists and NOT, in likely to commit atrocities as shown by my previous links I just gave so stop being dishonest.
    you have demonstrated nothing other than a bias and an inability to be objective.
    Here is the quotation again, lifted from the site, the salient point shall be highlighted
    for you this time and dont ever try to palm us off with bias again, unless your
    prepared to admit that your biased, which would at least demonstrate a degree of
    honesty.

    If I had simply picked 25 countries out of a hat, I could not have gotten a more
    diverse spread than we've got here. We've got rich countries and poor countries;
    industrial and agrarian; big and small. We've got people of all colors -- white, black,
    yellow and brown -- widely represented among both the slaughterers and the
    slaughterees. We've got Christians, Moslems, Buddhists and Atheists all butchering
    one another in the name of their various gods or lack thereof.
    Among the
    perpetrators, we've got political leanings of the left, right and middle; some are
    monarchies; some are dictatorships and some are even democracies. We've got
    innocent victims invaded by big, bad neighbors, and we've got plenty of countries
    who brought it on themselves, sowing the wind and reaping the whirlwind.
  15. Standard memberSwissGambit
    Caninus Interruptus
    2014.05.01
    Joined
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    09 May '12 20:37
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    clearly you dont know anything, please take a look at the demographics of the
    worlds worst atrocities

    http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/atrox.htm

    If I had simply picked 25 countries out of a hat, I could not have gotten a more
    diverse spread than we've got here. We've got rich countries and poor countries;
    industrial and agrarian; big and ...[text shortened]... ion and bigoted diatribe. I mean you no animosity Humy, but please turn
    up the tone.
    I've seen this link before, but somehow I missed:
    "I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it." -- Jack Handy
    Gold! That's going on my profile. 😀
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