Serious Question for all...

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Your a christian? Cool

You have the same approach to sharing your ideas about spirituality as the Zen monastaries- they only answer your questions if you ask, otherwise they keep to themselves.
Some people,very few indeed, are born story-tellers, the sort of people that can captivate an audience, tell a story,but NOT preach. The audience can take aw ...[text shortened]... m the story to help their own understanding , without any pressure to conform to the status quo.

Originally posted by Ullr
Uganda? Although a great deal of intolerance along with it. I was watching a documentary this week about how not long ago a law was passed in Uganda making homosexuality a capital offense. American evangelicals played a role in this.

Originally posted by Ullr
No I'm not a Christian. I'm a heathen. Asatru spefically. Some use the word pagan but I find that word far to general and unspecific and encompasses a lot of different things that I am not.

Oh and for the record, Karoly, you're my favorite Christian poster here. You seem to have found a good balance between Christian spirtuality without the intolerance and ignorance that all to often goes along with it. Just saying.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
O thanks, and thanks for the clarification.

Seems you are an individual, first and foremost, which is where we all get our 'power' from.

Funny, you calling me a "Christian poster" , although I do admit the core teachings of JC, as I understand them, were pretty sound.

Urll said
I think it's only mainstream in that it is considered acceptable (I guess provided one doesn't become too fanatic about it). But I agree, it has been my observation (having been raised in a New England Congregational protestant church) that is it very much a social (and business) network. Nothing wrong with that though provided that the social aspect is focused on strenghtening the community and not being intolerant and making social outcasts of those who truly don't deserve it. This is where I think Christianity, as we see it here in modern day USA, often fails.

I have found that many Atheists presume that typically, a Christian becomes a Christian in order to be accepted by their peers. What many Atheists (and churchgoers!) fail to realize is that a Christian doesn't just "become a Christian" by simply making a profession and engaging in the secret handshake. Becoming a Christian involves a life-changing conversion experience, not a simple decision to make life more comfortable. I have seen countless churchgoers who go--and even profess the faith--simply for the reason of establishing a network of associates and friends so that when the time comes, they can solicit help from others, or gain an advantage in the job market, etc.

Atheists aren't stupid -- they see this and walk away thinking Chritianity is a total facade. I can't blame them and many years ago, I was in complete agreement.


Ullr said
Well in fairness to others, they may not have the level of interest you do and therefore really don't want to talk about it. I'm very low key when it comes to discussing my spiritual beliefs. I don't think it needs to be a cornerstone of every other conversation I have. Mostly I just want people to know me as a good, reliable person first and foremost and not as heathen. If someone wants me to talk about my spiritual beliefs, I'm happy to do so but
not with the intent of trying to sway people to my way of thinking because I don't practice a salvation religion and therefore I have no comfort, promises, nor threats to give. One virtue I strive to maintain is that if I tell somebody I am going to do something then I do it even after it becomes inconvenient.

I was speaking of what a turn off Christian beliefs are to most people. I find it interesting that many people get offended or uncomfortable when I raise the subject because I don't do it in an attempt to sway their beliefs. I'm very gentle about it and talk about it like one would talk about anything, any current event.

Urll said
I believe this is one of the reasons Christianity gained traction in the Roman Empire. People found in Christianity a place where they could find fellowship, kindness, and genuine concern for their personal well being that was otherwise lacking for them in Roman society at the time. However, as the religion migrated north to the Germanic tribes it encountered closer knit communities that had tighter cultural ties to one another and the need was not quite as acute. Thus the tactics of conversion changed to a combination of that of accomodation of doctrine (i.e. Germancization of the religion) and coercion. I mean hasn't anyone else here ever found it odd that on Christmas Eve we start out in church dedicated to the worship of Christ and God with decorations of crucifixes and what not and then we go home to a lighted Christmas Tree, spiked Egg Nog, stockings hung by the fireplace where we leave offerings for an elf? I knew something was off kilter at a very young age. When I become an adult I chose the tree, the egg nog, and the elf over the dude suffering on the cross for my sins. This is because I felt this was a part of my true cultural heritage whereas the other scenario is imported and always just felt unnatural to me.

Indeed. Pre-conversion, the Gospel of Christ and His death on the cross is very, very unnatural. Depressing even. Gotcha. Who in their right mind wouldn't embrace the spiked eggnog and jolly elf.

Urll said
In a way you're proving my point. It sounds like you had a lot of instability in your life and, unless I'm reading it wrong, some dissociation from your family. Christianity filled in the gaps. I don't think there is anything wrong with that mind you. Many people are better off today from finding their place in Christianity. Spirituality and community is important and I believe they go hand in hand. If the need is not being fulfilled one way or another then there is a vaccum that must be filled.

I had no more instability than any of my contemporaries. I drank a ton, just as they did. I smoked a bunch (and still do, but not marijuana - and by the way I'd still smoke marijuana today if I didn't have such a bad reaction to it. Cigarettes are another story, unfortunately) but still, I didn't have any crises going on or anything that would cause me to run to Christianity. And as a matter of fact, during the time I converted I was persecuting Christians with great fervor and joy. I loved doing it. No, my conversion was neither a decision I made, nor was it even a choice. It wasn't presented to me that way. If it were presented as a choice I would have said no. 100 out of 100 times. My conversion to Christianity was a shocking, miraculous experience. I knew nothing of the doctrine to speak of at the time. But incredibly, I found out long after the event, that my conversion--and all the events that led up to it and immediately followed it--was very much a textbook conversion. These so-called conversions you hear of, where someone sits in a pool and "accepts Christ" in front of a few witnesses and gets dunked? Except for the true conversions which I believe are extremely rare, these events are nothing but a total facade and make a mockery of the faith and the conversion process.

Urll said
I think this is great. My only dispute with some Christians here is that there is not only one way to acheive this peace within oneself or spiritual fulfillment if you will. However, that idea is met with scorn and threats by hardcore Christians (and the likes of Dasa) here and elsewhere in the world. On the rare occasions that I do wade into the discussions here on this forum I will stick to my guns that I reject this intolerant and largely ignorant way of thinking. Not that I expect or even ask evangelical Christians to stop being evangelical. I will just continue to disagree with them is all.

While I agree with you totally on the point that there are many ways to achieve a level of peace or even a seemingly satisfactory spiritual "fulfillment," what the majority of Evangelicals here are trying to say is only what Jesus said in the bible. He is the way and the life, and no one can get to the Father but through Him. That doesn't really touch on inner peace and fulfillment, but rather touches on where we want to go and who we want to be with in the afterlife.

Christianity is all about the afterlife.

I'm glad you chose to wade into the discussions here. I am refreshed to discuss matters with a non-Christian who is reasonable, rational, polite, educated, and willing to think about the other person's position.

I am very, very glad we met. Regardless of the outcome.

Originally posted by sumydid
Urll said
[b]I think it's only mainstream in that it is considered acceptable (I guess provided one doesn't become too fanatic about it). But I agree, it has been my observation (having been raised in a New England Congregational protestant church) that is it very much a social (and business) network. Nothing wrong with that though provided that th ...[text shortened]... tion.

I am very, very glad we met. Regardless of the outcome.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I'm with you brother.

Originally posted by sumydid
It occurs to me to say this, though it falls short of addressing all the points in your entire post.

Christianity--and I mean true Christianity with all the good and all the bad--is actually a very unorthodox, counter-intuitive set of beliefs that most people reject.

It is seen as a very mainstream, user-friendly, easy-to-grasp belief system that a maj ...[text shortened]... nity, but at the same time, you end up in a much better place and I can attest to that.

Originally posted by Ullr
"Funny, you calling me a "Christian poster" "

Are you not a Christian? Sorry if I got it wrong.

Originally posted by mikelom
And how many times have you had to say, "and grant me the serenity.....:?" >?
Been there, done that, couldn't relate, left, never went back.

mikelom said
Since you found this new lease of Christianity, which may well serve yourself to have a good life, is it not also a crux?
Not to get too technical, but, I didn't find Christianity. It found me, so to speak. Anyway, by crux, I assume you mean crutch. Yes, I think my faith does act as a crutch, though I never made a conscious decision to use any faith for a crutch.

mikelom said
If you had found different words would it not be that your faith may lie elsewhere?
If you are asking--had some other god dwelled in me and caused me to have the same experience--would I instead have faith in that god instead? Yes, I guess I would, but, I am not aware of any other gods that are capable of such a thing so it only rises to the level of speculation, not real possibility.

mikelom said
Just a humble observation sumy... 😉
Are you holding up ok? Is there something that the rest of us can do for you personally?

Originally posted by sumydid
Originally posted by mikelom
[b]And how many times have you had to say, "and grant me the serenity.....:?" >?
Been there, done that, couldn't relate, left, never went back.

mikelom said
Since you found this new lease of Christianity, which may well serve yourself to have a good life, is it not also a crux?
Not to get [i]too[/i ...[text shortened]... ]
Are you holding up ok? Is there something that the rest of us can do for you personally?[/b]

Ok now I have tears flowing, mikelom. There's got to be some way we can help you.

Is it a matter of money... or what. What can be done. You've got to get out of there man.

Originally posted by mikelom
Actually, in all of this reality we are getting very tired. We don't know what news is truth or not. We planned to make another move to Korat today, but the taxi we'd offered a large sum of money to (in our current books) didn't arrive and called to say 'no go' in effect.

We are, indeed, tired and becoming dis-illusioned as to when we stop seeing water fo ...[text shortened]... humour, even to myself, keeps my spirits up.

I wish I'd bought a boat-house. 🙁

-m.

I don't know sumy. We are told the banks are sufficed, but no ATMs work because the water is too high, and they have been switched off anyway. I went for a swim this morning, to the disbelief of my wife (MD by the way).

I saw Nothing open. Nothing around us. People looking out of their 1st floors, smiling as a 'farang' swam past. No 7/11 open, no TescoLotus open, and a terrible rash on my left leg which my good lady is treating now. We have lots of anti-biotics to eat... 555.... lol. :'(

I have called various Embassies; I didn't take my mobile phone swimming no, and they are so inundated they said they'll get back to me in the next 72 hours. That's so re-assuring..... not. 😲

We ate the tinned fish we got, and it was mighty tasty - mackerel in tomato sauce I would recommend to anybody. It became a bit boring for breakfast this morning, after our 4th day of eating just that and crunchy packeted noodles, but it's food nonetheless.

Now I don't know where to get food. I guess I will have to brave the waters again, and go further and further. A neighbour threw us some rice from a bag, but it sank and he said 'sorry' - bless him.

😳

Originally posted by RJHinds
Come to Jesus and He will give you living water.