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Originally posted by Darfius"How would you deal with evil people, Bigg? Please, send God a letter voicing your complaints at how he runs His creation. Be sure to put 3 stamps, Heaven is pretty far."
How would you deal with evil people, Bigg? Please, send God a letter voicing your complaints at how he runs His creation. Be sure to put 3 stamps, Heaven is pretty far.
Honestly, criticizing the being who made you for anything is the h ...[text shortened]... purposefull illusion you hide behind to deny what is clear truth.
I certainly wouldn't sentence someone to eternal torment for telling a lie or lusting after a woman. It's mighty convenient for you just to call everyone 'evil'. That way you don't have to think about what their actual offence was.
"Honestly, criticizing the being who made you for anything is the height of stupidity. Obviously He has good reasons for doing everything He does. You're an idiot to project American morals (twisted) onto a righteous God. That's just stupid and a purposefull illusion you hide behind to deny what is clear truth."
What is truly stupid and idiotic is to take the words of man, that claim we were created by some supreme being that has always existed, and believe them blindly. You're also way off base to suggest that my morals are somehow exclusively American. Other cultures and countries have moral laws too, some of them the same as ours.
The weak minded require the illusion of hell, a place of eternal torment, to make them do the right thing.
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemThis is absolutely, 100% true. One not ought to avoid 'sin' because of the
The weak minded require the illusion of hell, a place of eternal torment, to make them do the right thing.
punishment, but simply on the basis that it is the wrong thing to do.
Similarly, one ought not do the right thing to 'impress God.' Doing the right
thing is our duty as human beings.
Nemesio
Originally posted by Nemesio
This is absolutely, 100% true. One not ought to avoid 'sin' because of the
punishment, but simply on the basis that it is the wrong thing to do.
Similarly, one ought not do the right thing to 'impress God.' Doing the right
thing is our duty as human beings.
Nemesio
Whilst I agree with all your motives for doing right and wrong, you would essentialy be agreeing that either
1. Jesus knowingly lied when making references to Hell.
2. Jesus did not make these references and the authors of Matthew, Mark, and Luke falsely attributed these statements to Him.
3. Jesus, Matthew, Mark, and Luke all had weak minds.
pc
Originally posted by pcaspianFirst of all, Jesus never makes reference to 'hell'
1. Jesus knowingly lied when making references to Hell.
2. Jesus did not make these references and the authors of Matthew, Mark, and Luke falsely attributed these statements to Him.
3. Jesus, Matthew, Mark, and Luke all had weak minds.
as such. The word is always Gehenna, which is well
established as the smouldering garbage pit outside of
Jerusalem.
Yes, He uses the term metaphorically to indicated a
lousy place to be -- right uncomfortable. And yes,
the Jews had a concept like Sheol, or underworld.
Your point is a fair one. 'Weak' is not the correct word.
I think the word 'limited' would be more appropriate.
The people in the first century CE had a limited view of
the nature of the world.
Given your three bullet points quoted above, I would respond
(out of order):
2. The term 'falsely' is misleading. If Jesus did, in fact, not
make references to Gehenna, I wouldn't call St Mark and
St Matthew 'liars,' but people attempting to depict Jesus in
the way they thought best. St Matthew routinely edited St
Mark, and I don't call him a liar or a 'false attributor.' For
my part, I am in the camp that believes that these sayings
are consistent with Jesus's demeanor -- that the inherent
controversy in being lame (which was considered to be a
major social liability back then) was better than being a sinner.
1. Again, you are using charged rhetoric. Assuming St Mark
reported this accurately, one could understand Jesus as either
a. having a limited understanding of the way in which the world
works, or, preferably, b. using a metaphor which would have
signficance to the people. I wouldn't consider a parable a lie
simply because the actors in the parable didn't exist, or I wouldn't
say Jesus is a liar for saying that the he is 'the vine,' when He is
obviously not a vine.
3. The way in which Hell was depicted back then (and today, in most
places) as a literal place where people are on fire and so forth is a
limited and theologically negative one. It uses the fear of punishment
to motivate good. I believe that God wants us to do right for right's sake,
not because we are either seeking to please Him (i.e., earn our way into
Heaven) or seeking to avoid eternal punishment (i.e., keep ourselves out
of Hell).
Personally, I believe that Hell is simply to not know God's love in the
relationships we have with our friends and neighbors. Fire and brimstone
are theologically absurd concepts, in my mind, a product of 1st-century
limited conceptions of the world enhanced by a medieval sense of rule
by fear (rather than rule by love).
Nemesio
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemDeath is a result of sin, which we brought into the picture, moreover
There's a hitch to this: Jesus claimed that "no one is good except God". That implies that God is trying to claim moral superiority over the human race. When he holds the kill record for humans, I don't see how he can make the claim legitimately.
there is more to life and death than just what is in this life and what
is to come is much more important, because it lasts forever.
We are not God, we are who we are and we make choices, this is
where we will be judged. Even if God limits His judgements to those
choices where we knew right from wrong and acted, I dare say that
not one of us would stand up to that either. Since I believe we have
done things we know we should not have and many of us have called
others bad for doing things we ourselves do.
God kills and makes alive, people do not do that. People do not
have the right to murder. You are comparing apples to oranges,
again treating God as if he were some mere human king or
some human ruler while He is the one that gives life. Fathering a
child is not the same thing.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJaysince god knows in advance who the bad ones are , seems like he's just wasting our time with sillly games. dont it?
Death is a result of sin, which we brought into the picture, moreover
there is more to life and death than just what is in this life and what
is to come is much more important, because it lasts forever.
We are not God, we are who we are and we make choices, this is
where we will be judged. Even if God limits His judgements to those
choices where we k ...[text shortened]... uman ruler while He is the one that gives life. Fathering a
child is not the same thing.
Kelly
Originally posted by frogstompAll have been judged as bad, myself included. Our choices now
since god knows in advance who the bad ones are , seems like he's just wasting our time with sillly games. dont it?
become righteousness, do we go about setting up our own, or
accept that which God gives us. It doesn't seem like a game
to me.
Kelly
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Originally posted by KellyJayI'm stuck on this point with you. Doesn't mankind also kill and make alive? A human couple can decide whether and when to have a child. If there is no night of conception, there is no child.
God kills and makes alive, people do not do that. People do not
have the right to murder.
People of course kill also. How can you say that God kills and people do not? Of course they do.
This is a really bad argument, if not an outright falsehood.
Edit: You say that fathering a child is not the same thing. Why not?
Originally posted by frogstompI guess that is where true judgment comes into play, if you do really
still he knows before hand which way we are going,, we really dont have a choice.
even in our second posts
have a choice to make, and you make it are you responsible for the
choice you did indeed make? Foreknowledge by God if it does not
affect you; make you do one thing over another thereby robbing you
of the true ability to choose, than you are left with what? The ability
to choose, and the consequence of those choices you make. Life is
messy, it is bloody, it is filled with grief and toil, love and joy, and
when we die we leave it all behind and take nothing with us after
we die. Truth will be revealed, I believe during the day of judgment
and what is based on solid ground will survive, that which is based
on falsehoods will crumble.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayThat's a nice belief, but I wouldn't stick a sword in an infant at the command of my "just" God because of it.
I guess that is where true judgment comes into play, if you do really
have a choice to make, and you make it are you responsible for the
choice you did indeed make? Foreknowledge by God if it does not
affect you; make you do one thing over another thereby robbing you
of the true ability to choose, than you are left with what? The ability
to choose, and ...[text shortened]... t is based on solid ground will survive, that which is based
on falsehoods will crumble.
Kelly
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Originally posted by BigDoggProblemI know couples that want children and don't have them, it isn't
I'm stuck on this point with you. Doesn't mankind also kill and make alive? A human couple can decide whether and when to have a child. If there is no night of conception, there is no child.
People of course kill also. How can y ...[text shortened]... it: You say that fathering a child is not the same thing. Why not?
like you just say you want a child and get one. You don't have
that power! I recall a story (fictional) where some scientists were
debating God saying they did not need him anymore there was
not anything that God could do they couldn’t do. God said simply
took some dirt and created life, the scientists grabbed some dirt
to do the same thing. God simply said, “Go get your own dirt.”
There is a difference between God and man, if you cannot see
it there isn’t much I can say to you to point that out.
God kills and makes alive, people do not do that. People do not
make life, they simply are part of the process started by God.
A process that God sets the boundaries on not man. Which is
why I think abortion is wrong. Conception like you say starts
something.
Kelly