Originally posted by Proper Knob
Okay.

Could you elaborate a little on this -

Is this not something similar to the use of " God Helmet " --a foolish and childish trivialisation of God ?

In what way do you find this particular experiment childish and trivial?

To approach spiritual experience by trying to excite some brain cells by electrical current, seems to me way short of what a Spiritual experience is--as described by those who had it e.g. Swami Vivekanand. The Swamiji has written what happened to him when Swami Ramakrishna touched his shoulder with his ( Swami Ramakrishna's) leg. Vivekanand writes that the whole world went into a whirl with such a rapid spin and so much blackness was around him he felt tremendously frightened,he felt that he was loosing his persona,he cried out in horror whereupon Ramakrishna withdrew his leg and immediately the room and other things swung back in Vivekanand's view. This was not even the realization of God but just a foretaste of the destruction of the ego of Vivekanand. Spiritual Experiences are not De Quincey's opium induced visions and they are much more serious. If you want to have Spiritual Experience toys won't do.

Originally posted by JS357
OK I get it.

BTW I have a little trouble* with the labels like agnostic, theist, etc. I don't consider myself to be agnostic. I am one who for a long time has lacked belief in deity and for some of that time thought I had a basis for saying "there is no deity." Now I align myself more with those who say that the concept of deity is incoherent, although my b ...[text shortened]... eity. Next week, another set of words might fit better.

*But it's only a little trouble.

The fact that you are having trouble to describe your views about " Deity " is a good sign. You are no different than the Rigved Rishi who admitted defeat when trying to describe God by saying that his faculty of Speech and his mind has retreated ( from the concept ) after seeing that "God" is not "obtainable". ( in Sanskrit, yato vacho nivartante, aprapya manasa sah ).
You are evolving and best wishes for the onward journey !

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
To approach spiritual experience by trying to excite some brain cells by electrical current, seems to me way short of what a Spiritual experience is--as described by those who had it e.g. Swami Vivekanand. The Swamiji has written what happened to him when Swami Ramakrishna touched his shoulder with his ( Swami Ramakrishna's) leg. Vivekanand writes that th ...[text shortened]... ions and they are much more serious. If you want to have Spiritual Experience toys won't do.

I disagree. I don't see how investigative scientific experiments into how the human brain works are childish or trivial in any way shape or form.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
To approach spiritual experience by trying to excite some brain cells by electrical current, seems to me way short of what a Spiritual experience is--as described by those who had it e.g. Swami Vivekanand. The Swamiji has written what happened to him when Swami Ramakrishna touched his shoulder with his ( Swami Ramakrishna's) leg. Vivekanand writes that th ...[text shortened]... ions and they are much more serious. If you want to have Spiritual Experience toys won't do.

This seems more like an experience with Satan or demon spirits to me.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
The fact that you are having trouble to describe your views about " Deity " is a good sign. You are no different than the Rigved Rishi who admitted defeat when trying to describe God by saying that his faculty of Speech and his mind has retreated ( from the concept ) after seeing that "God" is not "obtainable". ( in Sanskrit, yato vacho nivartante, aprapya manasa sah ).
You are evolving and best wishes for the onward journey !

Way back when, in a management course, I objected to the use of the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator, because it pigeonholes people into one of sixteen categories which we can then treat people as, instead of getting to know them as people. (Of course there is probably a Myers-Briggs type that tends to object to its use.) So My trouble with labels like "agnostic" and "theist" reflect in part a more general proclivity. Of course you might be right that this makes me more open to where this spiritual journey goes. I am open to that possibility. 🙂

Originally posted by black beetle
I use the mind in order to unbind; unbinding, desire is not, jealousy is not, ignorance is not, karmic debts are settled; all I am left with is clear light -and then I have no the slightest projection of the mind in there😵

Trust me though friend scoring some sticky green has got to be easier, and oh how it makes me laugh at the world that was vexing me a couple of inhalations ago.

Namaste back at ya🙂

Originally posted by black beetle
Self and the dream stuff from which we create our reality, are empty of inherent existence. To say that a drug-boosted reality is more real than the "regular" reality, does not hold. Also, both realities are empty, clinging is a bitch😵

Unclinging is a bastard.

So what is a drug? oxygen?

Originally posted by Proper Knob
I disagree. I don't see how investigative scientific experiments into how the human brain works are childish or trivial in any way shape or form.

I have no quarrel with scientific experiments which investigate how our brain works. Please do not put words in my mouth. I have every respect for such neuroscience experiments. What is my objection is to the specific claim of the maker of God Helmet that by putting it on, one gets to feel a Spiritual Experience. Spiritual Experiences are in a different category. Neurological experiments may be bringing forth the memories stored already in one's brain either in a whole, meaningful manner or in a disjointed manner as in a dream, all that the brain cells are capable of is to exhibit what they have ALREADY stored as a sensation either as a visual or by way of smells,feelings of touch and the various ideas etc. No wonder Dawkins did not " feel" any " Other Presence " in the room when he tried it on. What happened in the case of Vivekanand was there was an input into his brain from outside, smashing his previously stored sensations.

Originally posted by JS357
Way back when, in a management course, I objected to the use of the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator, because it pigeonholes people into one of sixteen categories which we can then treat people as, instead of getting to know them as people. (Of course there is probably a Myers-Briggs type that tends to object to its use.) So My trouble with labels like "agnostic" a ...[text shortened]... s makes me more open to where this spiritual journey goes. I am open to that possibility. 🙂

I, too dislike putting people in pigeonholes. The wonder of the Creation is that while there are plenty of similarities among individuals, each one is differentiated from the other. But a Rose is Rose by any other name. And, you my respected friend, are a sympathetic, open minded, well read philosopher whose posts I am always keen to read. (I confess, that the higher level Metaphysical and Symbolic Logic terminology goes way over my head.) Have you read " The Confessions of an Opium Eater " by Thomas De Quincey ? I read it long ago when I was about 19, and a British Council Library member in Pune (aka Poona , a well known historic city in western India ). I have not retained much of it though, except that it was a glossy book, and De Quincey was a master of English.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Unclinging is a bastard.

So what is a drug? oxygen?

Oxygen is oxygen. Drug is whatever keeps you addictive and delusional, forcing you to bring up variations that do not hold. Oxygen is not a drug but a necessary part of our physical world, without it we cannot survive. Drug is not a necessary part of our physical world, we can still live without it.
How can you stop clinging? Develop constant awareness and terminate the reasons that pushed you to become a slave of clinging. So you have to get to know yourself. I argue one cannot get to know himself if he is incompetent to get to know himself. Nobody is incompetent to get to know himself once he can transform his tendencies into another tendencies. But if one just force himself to stop doing this and that just “because G-d will punish him” or because “it is not politically correct” etc whilst leaving his burning addictive tendency chained deep down in him, that chained force will backfire at a given time and will tear him apart
😵

Originally posted by kevcvs57
Trust me though friend scoring some sticky green has got to be easier, and oh how it makes me laugh at the world that was vexing me a couple of inhalations ago.

Namaste back at ya🙂

Easier, but you cannot go beyond😵

Originally posted by RJHinds
This seems more like an experience with Satan or demon spirits to me.

Again that ole Texan cow said " Oh why
Can't I look in my ear with my eye?
If I give my mind to it,
I 'm sure I can do it;
You never can tell till you try."
😵

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
I have no quarrel with scientific experiments which investigate how our brain works. Please do not put words in my mouth. I have every respect for such neuroscience experiments. What is my objection is to the specific claim of the maker of God Helmet that by putting it on, one gets to feel a Spiritual Experience. Spiritual Experiences are in a different c ...[text shortened]... there was an input into his brain from outside, smashing his previously stored sensations.

What happened in the case of Vivekanand was there was an input into his brain from outside, smashing his previously stored sensations.

And how exactly do you know this to be the case? Why couldn't Vivekanand's experience have occurred using the mechanism you described above?

Originally posted by Proper Knob
[b]What happened in the case of Vivekanand was there was an input into his brain from outside, smashing his previously stored sensations.

And how exactly do you know this to be the case? Why couldn't Vivekanand's experience have occurred using the mechanism you described above?[/b]

The incident had taken place in the 1880s in Dakshineshwar temple near Kolkata. No electricity was then available in Dakshineshwar. And no plastic helmets either. This inputting of Energy into a disciple is a technique called Shaktipat ( literally " The Landing / Downloading of Energy ) This incident of Shaktipat has been so described by Vivekanand himself and many of his contemporaries.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
The incident had taken place in the 1880s in Dakshineshwar temple near Kolkata. No electricity was then available in Dakshineshwar. And no plastic helmets either. This inputting of Energy into a disciple is a technique called Shaktipat ( literally " The Landing / Downloading of Energy ) This incident of Shaktipat has been so described by Vivekanand himself and many of his contemporaries.

You misunderstand me, i'll try to explain better. It seems that 'spiritual events' can be triggered in peoples brains using either chemicals, in the form of drugs, or electrical stimulation, as in the case of the 'God helmet' or occur in other ways as listed in this wiki page -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_experience#Causes_of_religious_experiences

It appears there is a mechanism within each of us which can lead us to experience what we would term a 'spiritual experience', i don't see why what you describe above is any different.