Originally posted by Proper Knob
You misunderstand me, i'll try to explain better. It seems that 'spiritual events' can be triggered in peoples brains using either chemicals, in the form of drugs, or electrical stimulation, as in the case of the 'God helmet' or occur in other ways as listed in this wiki page -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_experience#Causes_of_religious_expe ...[text shortened]... term a 'spiritual experience', i don't see why what you describe above is any different.

It is Dr.Persiger's thesis that on stimulation of certain parts of human brain by a magnetic field, spiritual experience is possible. This " God Helmet " was tried out by Richard Dawkins who felt, I recall, a slight dizziness and a tingling in the leg. Nothing like the presence of " Some Other in the Room " as claimed by others trying the Helmet.
Let us grant that certain visions or certain experiences are likely after either chemical or electro-magnetic stimulation of the brain.
My say is that what the person is experiencing is a recapitulation ( may be with a new arrangement ) of his previously stored sensations either in a well organised and structured fashion or in an unstructured haphazard meaningless fashion as in a dream. But there is nothing new in these visions. That person could not have learnt or experienced anything other than what was already stored in the brain. Spiritual Experience for the novitiate is an absolutely new thing. Gurus input that into the disciple the first time.This alone could be Spiritual Experience. Otherwise we must necessarily call our dreams as spiritual experiences.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
It is Dr.Persiger's thesis that on stimulation of certain parts of human brain by a magnetic field, spiritual experience is possible. This " God Helmet " was tried out by Richard Dawkins who felt, I recall, a slight dizziness and a tingling in the leg. Nothing like the presence of " Some Other in the Room " as claimed by others trying the Helmet.
Let us ...[text shortened]... iritual Experience. Otherwise we must necessarily call our dreams as spiritual experiences.

I am struggling with this. Without tiptoeing too close to the question, "What makes an experience a spiritual experience" (SE) I want to ask why it is that new inputs, and only new inputs from a guru, are those that bring about a SE? Are you saying this? Are you saying that an experience can be an SE if and only if it is triggered by a new input from a guru? I would be willing to grant that an SE can be triggered by a person having skills in bringing about SE's, and that the guru's input can be had by direct face to face guidance, by reading their written words, seeing a video, etc. But I'm not sure why it would not allow that person to effect an SE by use of an EM device, exogenous drug, etc. Whether this has been done by such means, is another question.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
I, too dislike putting people in pigeonholes. The wonder of the Creation is that while there are plenty of similarities among individuals, each one is differentiated from the other. But a Rose is Rose by any other name. And, you my respected friend, are a sympathetic, open minded, well read philosopher whose posts I am always keen to read. (I confess, th ...[text shortened]... d much of it though, except that it was a glossy book, and De Quincey was a master of English.

I've ordered it from my library. Thanks.

Thanks for the compliment. As is obvious from time to time, I reserve the right to post foolishness. 🙂

Originally posted by black beetle
Oxygen is oxygen. Drug is whatever keeps you addictive and delusional, forcing you to bring up variations that do not hold. Oxygen is not a drug but a necessary part of our physical world, without it we cannot survive. Drug is not a necessary part of our physical world, we can still live without it.
How can you stop clinging? Develop constant awareness ...[text shortened]... d deep down in him, that chained force will backfire at a given time and will tear him apart
😵

Hence I am petering out.
I have tried going "all out" a few times. Good times. Hard times. Educational times but ultimately still dualist times.
Now I just go through the motions and subscribe to "dilution" . Diluting my addictions. Stretching them out.
So many drugs in my life. I've nearly had my fill...

I still dont think i would've got here as quick without LSD. But that seems like another life now

Originally posted by black beetle
Easier, but you cannot go beyond😵

Seems you are more determined to escape from reality than I am. I like and recognize reality as far as I can get my head round the technical data, I just like to take it with the occasional twist. I fear your searches may have caused you to take this experience too seriously. 😉

As far as I know there are no addictive constituents in marijuana, although some users seem to develop an emotional or psychological dependency the same can be said for religious and philosophical beliefs.

Originally posted by kevcvs57
Seems you are more determined to escape from reality than I am. I like and recognize reality as far as I can get my head round the technical data, I just like to take it with the occasional twist. I fear your searches may have caused you to take this experience too seriously. 😉

As far as I know there are no addictive constituents in marijuana, although ...[text shortened]... tional or psychological dependency the same can be said for religious and philosophical beliefs.

No, I am not determined to escape reality. I am determined to keep constantly my awareness and to come up with my reality, a reality that is a product of my will rather than the product of somedy else's reality who managed to keep me down (and I keep in mind that both realities are empty). However I don't take seriously this process because I don't take myself seriously; seriously, I take the world.
So the thingie I take seriously is this: one cannot take the world seriously if one is delusional, and delusional is anyone whose variations do not hold.

According to my experiences, marijuana cannot be compared to meditation. There are many levels of meditation, all used in order to ease the meditator to bring up variations that hold. In contrast, high on marijuana try to maintain high cornering speed; play chess; play poker; defend yourself when you are under attack; work hard; make an accurate argument; evaluate correctly the reality; drive your car with safety etc etc. You simply cannot.
Furthermore, the meditator does not cultivate an emotional or psychological dependency neither on meditation, nor on religious and philosophic beliefs because he is aware of the fact that both his self and his beliefs are empty;

I have nothing against maria per se; I merely say that I am the generator of my reality, and in this context maria to me is useless😵

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Hence I am petering out.
I have tried going "all out" a few times. Good times. Hard times. Educational times but ultimately still dualist times.
Now I just go through the motions and subscribe to "dilution" . Diluting my addictions. Stretching them out.
So many drugs in my life. I've nearly had my fill...

I still dont think i would've got here as quick without LSD. But that seems like another life now

Reality is simple; the simplicity of the mind can touch reality, so go beyond the intellect and bring your mind into its natural state. This pure nature already exists in you because it is born with you. Your mind is like the sky and your problems of ego grasping and self pity are like clouds. They will all pass and disappear. Your mind is like a mirror and your problems of ego grasping and self pity are like dust. Dust can disappear at a glance, keep the mirror clear, bring the mirror into its natural state and let reality reflect on its surface without distortion.
Do not ever again believe that you are your ego and your problems and, hence, you cannot solve your problems. Never believe this nonsense. You can see. See what you have to see, make it yours and radiate it to the ones you cherish most.
Don’t be lazy and do it right now.

Namaste
😵

Originally posted by black beetle
No, I am not determined to escape reality. I am determined to keep constantly my awareness and to come up with my reality, a reality that is a product of my will rather than the product of somedy else's reality who managed to keep me down (and I keep in mind that both realities are empty). However I don't take seriously this process because I don't take ...[text shortened]... erely say that I am the generator of my reality, and in this context maria to me is useless😵

No I certainly would not drive a car whilst under the influence as it effects my spacial awareness, but as for intellectual activity I do not play chess any worse when I have had a puff, than I play without it. To be honest I am not sure I am happy about you taking fast corners when you are meditating or inhabiting your personal reality construct.

Marijuana does not make the user delusional in any way, it simply relaxes the mind and body, and on a good day allows one to see more of the objective reality of the world around you as it has a tendency to subdue the Ego slightly; I would commend to it to everyone on that basis alone .😵 but I could not and would not compare it to meditation as I have never meditated in the sense that you imply.

Originally posted by kevcvs57
No I certainly would not drive a car whilst under the influence as it effects my spacial awareness, but as for intellectual activity I do not play chess any worse when I have had a puff, than I play without it. To be honest I am not sure I am happy about you taking fast corners when you are meditating or inhabiting your personal reality construct.

Marij ...[text shortened]... ot and would not compare it to meditation as I have never meditated in the sense that you imply.

Edit: "To be honest I am not sure I am happy about you taking fast corners when you are meditating or inhabiting your personal reality construct."

You simply do not understand the mental process followed by the professional riders! Try for starters Keith Code's "Twist of the Wrist" and see what exactly is the "meditation of the racer" 🙂

So you are aware of the fact that your spacial awareness is distorted by maria! Well, the same goes for your intellectual activity overall -the spatial awareness is just a subset of awareness.

There is no Ego to be subdued; to say "one smokes maria in order to subdue Ego" does not hold😵

Originally posted by black beetle
Reality is simple; the simplicity of the mind can touch reality, so go beyond the intellect and bring your mind into its natural state. This pure nature already exists in you because it is born with you. Your mind is like the sky and your problems of ego grasping and self pity are like clouds. They will all pass and disappear. Your mind is like a mirror ...[text shortened]... and radiate it to the ones you cherish most.
Don’t be lazy and do it right now.

Namaste
😵

I am my own worst enemy. I throw away my potential everyday, every hour.
I realize this much.
But to come to some other path, one which I have not cultivated myself would be equally useless at this stage.
This thing is either gonna fly or its not. I'm confident.
I have no problem giving.
But i'm glad I am not deluded by my ego as much as I once was.

Namaste

Originally posted by JS357
I am struggling with this. Without tiptoeing too close to the question, "What makes an experience a spiritual experience" (SE) I want to ask why it is that new inputs, and only new inputs from a guru, are those that bring about a SE? Are you saying this? Are you saying that an experience can be an SE if and only if it is triggered by a new input from a guru? device, exogenous drug, etc. Whether this has been done by such means, is another question.

I will try to define an SE by saying that it is an experience of non-material reality ( ? ! ). Any experience that is literally out of this world, or an experience composed of elements not belonging to this " objects with name-appearance " world with which we are familiar including our dream world ---- which is a bedraggled version of the everyday awakened world. An experience which brings us closer to the Ultimate reality--call it God,Brahman, Allah, Jehovah or what you like.
Since all our treasury of sensations lying in our brain is composed of elements of this familiar world, any rehash of these elements cannot be an SE. Drug induced visions, comprising of this worldly elements cannot be an SE.
New inputs are required to experience the first SE, by definition.
For the novitiate, the first SE has to be given by the Guru. Afterwards, the disciple, by following the teachings of his Guru, can have more SEs. Then on, he/she is on their own journey and can have SEs on their own. May be some modern Guru can do the Shaktipat by scientific apparatus, I do not know /cannot predict.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
I will try to define an SE by saying that it is an experience of non-material reality ( ? ! ). Any experience that is literally out of this world, or an experience composed of elements not belonging to this " objects with name-appearance " world with which we are familiar including our dream world ---- which is a bedraggled version of the everyday awakene ...[text shortened]... some modern Guru can do the Shaktipat by scientific apparatus, I do not know /cannot predict.

We used to have these "mind machines" which were basically just pulsating red lights accompanied matching white noise rythyms emanating from the headphones.
(They were like head phones that go over your head with little bite that stuck out the front in front of your eyes)
You were supposed to close your eyes and meditate or just relax. The sensation was quickly one of flying through space , passing many stars.
I think there were adjustments on it so that it could automatically slow down, this in turn seemed to slow down your brain waves.
Every one who tried them that I knew said they felt refreshed and more alert after using them. Except for one. She was an epilectic and she went into a fit after a few minutes.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
I will try to define an SE by saying that it is an experience of non-material reality ( ? ! ). Any experience that is literally out of this world, or an experience composed of elements not belonging to this " objects with name-appearance " world with which we are familiar including our dream world ---- which is a bedraggled version of the everyday awakene ...[text shortened]... some modern Guru can do the Shaktipat by scientific apparatus, I do not know /cannot predict.

My aversion to categorization leads me to accept your statements here as representing and reporting on your experiences and your conclusions from those experiences. I don't want to get into a situation where we, however many, are sitting around deciding whether this or that experience is a spiritual one, especially because all we have of someone else's experience is their description of it.

I suppose this reaction may actually be in keeping with your talking about this "objects with name-appearance" world -- I do not want to fall into making SE's into a element of that world. Rather, I would say, we can just describe the experience to others the best we can, but I think, the experience is ours to savor, not our description or name for it. I will just leave it at that and thank you for the exchange so far. It has given me things to think about and that is always good.