1. Joined
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    06 Mar '11 18:12
    I see an awful lot of constant hypocrisy here on these forums by certain (not all, just an extreme minority) theists:

    They constantly lecture to as atheists about love and hate as if we atheists promote hate and are full of hate and are against love and have no love just by being atheist! This is, of course, nonsense. Atheism is not about hate or anti-love, and, if you want to know what atheism is about, just look it up in the dictionary! It means disbelief that there exists a god and nothing more.
    We atheists are no more capable of hate and are no less capable of love than theists.
    To add to that hypocritical, they show extraordinary hatred towards atheists on these forums and at times so much that it can only be compared with the hatred the Nazis had against the Jews -and they lecture to US about hate!?
    Perhaps they should be reminded of a few facts:

    http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/a/NaziChristian.htm
    “...Christians may not like acknowledging that Nazi actions might have anything to do with Christianity, but Germany saw itself as a fundamentally Christian nation and millions of Christians in Germany enthusiastically endorsed Hitler and the Nazi Party in part because they saw both as embodiments of both German and Christian ideals. ...”

    also, Hitler himself was definitely a theist:
    http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/murphy_19_2.html

    also, was it atheists that flew aircraft into tall buildings? Answer, no. it was religious extremists, NOT atheists!

    OK, there was also some evil atheists; Stalin being by far the best example I think although I haven't ever seen any evidence nor reason to believe that he ever said he killed specifically in the name of atheism, and who has? And yet many atrocities throughout history have been committed in the name of a religion or a god. But, given that most of the most evil people in history were clearly theist, how dare some theists accuse US of being evil!!!

    They also make out that the existence of god, even to us atheists, is, somehow, 'obvious'! Of course, this is also nonsense. It is no more obvious that god exists to an atheist as it is obvious to an atheist that the spaghetti monster exists and for the same reason -there is no evidence that there exists a god just as there is no evidence that there exists a spaghetti monster.
    So why are we atheists supposed to be evil/hateful? -because we don't have blind faith in the said existence of something because we see no evidence? -that simply doesn't make any sense. Are you just being evil and hateful for denying the spaghetti monster?

    So please, Stop lecturing us!
  2. Standard memberKellyJay
    Walk your Faith
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    06 Mar '11 18:47
    Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
    I see an awful lot of constant hypocrisy here on these forums by certain (not all, just an extreme minority) theists:

    They constantly lecture to as atheists about love and hate as if we atheists promote hate and are full of hate and are against love and have no love just by being atheist! This is, of course, nonsense. Atheism is not about hate or ...[text shortened]... being evil and hateful for denying the spaghetti monster?

    So please, Stop lecturing us!
    Why in the world would you ever want that to happen! As you point out that those
    that are both Theist and Atheist have people within their ranks that are very evil if
    you accept that word, or hateful if you don't, they simply that want to force others
    to be under their control! Lecturing each other is a means to police both the other
    group and ourselves and the conflict with each group and within each group that is
    out in the open helps everyone to see what is going on around them. If you do not
    like it when you are corrected or belittled the best way to do that is to stop doing it
    to others so that your lectures will not be rejected out hand too as everyone will
    know you too do not practice what you preach. If you do not belittle or insult than
    you are a cut above the rest of us who from time to time let the baser of our
    nature get the better of us.
    Kelly
  3. Cape Town
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    06 Mar '11 18:57
    I find myself agreeing with most of what Andrew Hamilton and KellyJay have just said. I hope they weren't quite opposites or I will find myself in a logical fix.
  4. Joined
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    06 Mar '11 20:21
    Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
    I see an awful lot of constant hypocrisy here on these forums by certain (not all, just an extreme minority) theists:

    They constantly lecture to as atheists about love and hate as if we atheists promote hate and are full of hate and are against love and have no love just by being atheist! This is, of course, nonsense. Atheism is not about hate or ...[text shortened]... being evil and hateful for denying the spaghetti monster?

    So please, Stop lecturing us!
    Fair points Andrew, but why don't you take it up directly with those people who actually lecture you rather than drifting into another "Christianity was the choice religion of Hitler and therefore..." commentary. I think it’s completely clear that theism or atheism are philosophical positions equally capable of producing evil.
  5. Joined
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    06 Mar '11 20:311 edit
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    Why in the world would you ever want that to happen! As you point out that those
    that are both Theist and Atheist have people within their ranks that are very evil if
    you accept that word, or hateful if you don't, they simply that want to force others
    to be under their control! Lecturing each other is a means to police both the other
    group and ourselv ...[text shortened]... the rest of us who from time to time let the baser of our
    nature get the better of us.
    Kelly
    “...Why in the world would you ever want that to happen! ...”

    do you mean why do I want theists to stop calling atheists hateful and without love just for being atheists?
    Why in the world would I want that!!! πŸ˜›

    “...If you do not like it when you are corrected or belittled ...”

    they “belittled” atheists yes, but how am I being “corrected”? It is not ME that is saying some group is hateful and without love or evil just because of what they believe or disbelieve. Most theists are NOT hateful nor evil -pity that some (a minority) theists say we atheists are evil or hateful just for being atheists.

    “...the best way to do that is to stop doing it to others ...”

    I called some theists hateful on these forums because they clearly are -they were hatefully belittling atheists long before I said anything so me stopping pointing out their hypocrisy will not stop them. Your advice is flawed.
    They show extreme hatred towards all atheists whether they say anything hateful (or simply whether they say anything!) or not.

    “...know you too do not practice what you preach. ...”

    in what way do I “ not practice what you preach”? Do I imply/call all/most theists hateful and incapable of love or evil? No, I say the exact opposite and always have done. Calling some group as a whole evil just because of what they happen to believe or disbelieve is a bit much for me; but apparently not a bit much for some theists on these forums.
  6. St. Peter's
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    06 Mar '11 21:17
    Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
    I see an awful lot of constant hypocrisy here on these forums by certain (not all, just an extreme minority) theists:

    They constantly lecture to as atheists about love and hate as if we atheists promote hate and are full of hate and are against love and have no love just by being atheist! This is, of course, nonsense. Atheism is not about hate or ...[text shortened]... being evil and hateful for denying the spaghetti monster?

    So please, Stop lecturing us!
    I call them stooopid, not hateful😏
  7. Standard memberKellyJay
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    06 Mar '11 21:371 edit
    Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
    “...Why in the world would you ever want that to happen! ...”

    do you mean why do I want theists to stop calling atheists hateful and without love just for being atheists?
    Why in the world would I want that!!! πŸ˜›

    “...If you do not like it when you are corrected or belittled ...”

    they “belittled” atheists yes, but how am I being “corrected”? ...[text shortened]... disbelieve is a bit much for me; but apparently not a bit much for some theists on these forums.
    The point was that each group has those that both reflect the best of each group
    and those that reflect the worse, the heroes and villains. The lectures (the topic
    you picked) come from both sides they are both internal debates where the
    Atheists speak to one another and those that the Theists speak to each other, as
    well as when they go at each other. Now if you wanted to the topic to be hateful
    speech instead of lectures my response would have been different.
    Kelly
  8. Joined
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    06 Mar '11 21:43
    Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
    To add to that hypocritical, they show extraordinary hatred towards atheists on these forums and at times so much that it can only be compared with the hatred the Nazis had against the Jews -and they lecture to US about hate!?
    Perhaps they should be reminded of a few facts:
    Your real name wouldn't be Sherrod Brown would it? πŸ˜›
  9. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
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    07 Mar '11 10:15
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I find myself agreeing with most of what Andrew Hamilton and KellyJay have just said. I hope they weren't quite opposites or I will find myself in a logical fix.
    😡
    Maybe you should sleep on it and re-read them tomorrow?
  10. Standard memberkaroly aczel
    the Devil himself
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    07 Mar '11 10:22
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Fair points Andrew, but why don't you take it up directly with those people who actually lecture you rather than drifting into another "Christianity was the choice religion of Hitler and therefore..." commentary. I think it’s completely clear that theism or atheism are philosophical positions equally capable of producing evil.
    I agree. It's just another red herring to start accusing one side or the other that they are more "evil".

    Historically though scientists and athiests have been silenced through the force of the church, so a case could be made that the theists were more "evil" in the past perhaps ?
  11. Joined
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    07 Mar '11 11:111 edit
    Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
    [b]I see an awful lot of constant hypocrisy here on these forums by certain (not all, just an extreme minority) theists:

    They constantly lecture to as atheists about love and hate as if we atheists promote hate and are full of hate and are against love and have no love just by being atheist! This is, of course, nonsense. Atheism is not about hate or ...[text shortened]... nothing more.
    We atheists are no more capable of hate and are no less capable of love than theists.
    I would say yes and no. In agreeing, I would say that we are designed to function with a love as a baseline. However, this is easy and natural to do with those that love us back, but not for those who do not.

    In disagreeing I would say we need to look at the example of Christ. Can you love those who hate you and despitefully use you and kill you? I would argue that you have entered the arena of the supernatural in doing so. It is not only unnatural, it takes something greater than yourself to accomplish. Christ is the perfection of the law which is based on love.
  12. Joined
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    07 Mar '11 11:39
    Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
    I see an awful lot of constant hypocrisy here on these forums by certain (not all, just an extreme minority) theists:

    They constantly lecture to as atheists about love and hate as if we atheists promote hate and are full of hate and are against love and have no love just by being atheist! This is, of course, nonsense. Atheism is not about hate or ...[text shortened]... being evil and hateful for denying the spaghetti monster?

    So please, Stop lecturing us!
    stalin and pol pot
  13. Joined
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    07 Mar '11 15:372 edits
    Originally posted by Andrew Hamilton
    I see an awful lot of constant hypocrisy here on these forums by certain (not all, just an extreme minority) theists:

    They constantly lecture to as atheists about love and hate as if we atheists promote hate and are full of hate and are against love and have no love just by being atheist! This is, of course, nonsense. Atheism is not about hate or being evil and hateful for denying the spaghetti monster?

    So please, Stop lecturing us!
    We want you to be saved. We want you to not be condemned by the righteous God. We want you to be saved.

    Could we push a button to force you to believe and be forgiven of your sins, we would surely do so. But we cannot.

    So we plead, reason, argue, preach, pray, debate some more, pray, entreat, try to show you the sense of it all.

    We know that we ourselves were not deserving of salvation. Some of us realize we were NOT, I say we were NOT searching for God. We were not searching for God anymore than a mouse searching for a cat !

    But somehow God had mercy on us and gave us the ability to believe in Christ.

    When I listen to some of you athiests, sometimes wonder, "How is it I actually believe this gospel ?" It is a miracle. It is something wonderful that I have the ability to believe the truth - Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

    And He commanded us to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. So you see Mr. Hamilton, we employ all kinds of methods, some good, some not good, some of God and some not of God, to somehow give you a way to experience the same totally undeserved blessing that some of us have experienced.

    That is to know that Jesus Christ is alive and available and is the Savior.
    You will not always and forever hear us lecture. But for now you will run into us and hear us because we know Christ loves you and we want you to be saved.
  14. Joined
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    07 Mar '11 17:03
    Originally posted by jaywill
    We want you to be saved. We want you to not be condemned by the righteous God. We want you to be saved.

    Could we push a button to force you to believe and be forgiven of your sins, we would surely do so. But we cannot.

    So we plead, reason, argue, preach, pray, debate some more, pray, entreat, try to show you the sense of it all.

    We know that we ...[text shortened]... you will run into us and hear us because we know Christ loves you and we want you to be saved.
    Here we have examples of the law of unintended consequences; in this case, perverse effects, contrary to those originally intended. A complaint about lecturing brings lecturing. Proselytizing strengthens resistance to itself.

    Of course, trolls come along too.πŸ˜‰
  15. Joined
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    07 Mar '11 17:11
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Fair points Andrew, but why don't you take it up directly with those people who actually lecture you rather than drifting into another "Christianity was the choice religion of Hitler and therefore..." commentary. I think it’s completely clear that theism or atheism are philosophical positions equally capable of producing evil.
    “...why don't you take it up directly with those people who actually lecture you rather than drifting into another "Christianity was the choice religion of Hitler and therefore..." ...”

    firstly, if you read that post of mine, you shall see that I was at pains to make it clear that I was referring to a minority of theists on these forums and that includes a minority of Christians.
    Secondly, I was not in anyway implying that just because an evil person believes some belief X means that simply having that belief X makes you evil because that is clearly false -it was certain theists on these forums suggesting that and, specifically, with atheism. So my counterargument for that is to point out to them that IF that flawed logic is valid then, according to their own flawed logic, THEY (theists) must be evil! Of course, one does NOT logically follow from the other. So my point is NOT that all Christians are evil because "Christianity was the choice religion of Hitler” because that logic is flawed. My point is that according to their own flawed logic, THEY (theists) must be evil -which is absurd and therefore it must be their logic that is flawed and therefore their logic they use against atheists, which is the SAME logic, is flawed.

    “...I think it’s completely clear that theism or atheism are philosophical positions equally capable of producing evil. ...”

    I would agree that both are capable of evil but the atheism cannot cause somebody to be evil because atheism is not so much a belief but a disbelief. Can you name just ONE person in history that has commit ANY act of evil specifically and explicitly in the name of atheism? Any example will do....
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