@kellyjay saidThen we are agreed , your holy ,holy book was created by humans.
You say that as if it were a factual statement, much like when I say it is divine in nature. The truth is that it took 1500 years to put together it wasn't an overnight thing, it was not written by a single author attempting to enlighten his/her followers, it didn't even cast the followers into a good light. It didn't even cast the main person in scripture in a constant good ...[text shortened]... nnot find another ancient manuscript period that has as much support as the New Testament documents.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidOh man ! I don't worship money or even immorality . I wonder if that is significant .
There is a lingering peculiarity among many theists that a person without faith has a God-sized hole in their life that they fill with the worship of money or immorality.
@kellyjay saidIt doesn't even cast God in a good light.
You say that as if it were a factual statement, much like when I say it is divine in nature. The truth is that it took 1500 years to put together it wasn't an overnight thing, it was not written by a single author attempting to enlighten his/her followers, it didn't even cast the followers into a good light. It didn't even cast the main person in scripture in a constant good ...[text shortened]... nnot find another ancient manuscript period that has as much support as the New Testament documents.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidFor a people who no longer see the light, that would be difficult statement to back up. 🙂
It doesn't even cast God in a good light.
I have mixed views on this.
It seems that many people of Earth (admittedly a limited cohort) are indeed fortified and benefited by a belief in a God, one which others might dismiss as merely conceptual or primitive.
Others might better benefit from jettisoning the concepts and templates of their sociomental surrounds, whether or not the notion of a Cosmic Intelligence is involved in their daily considerations.
1 edit
@caesar-salad saidHow would human life without a belief in God and all of the vestiges that it brought to the human experience play out? Once the thought that human life is sacred has been removed the value from something holy would be replaced with that is useful and necessary. A humanist who held beliefs that held that all human life, the weak, the old, should be defended could draw on what to defend that? The weak taking away resources from the strong that would be anti-evolutionary thinking, and linking of the divine values would be cursed not helpful. With all restraints from human desires removed, the world ends up with the survival of the fittest where the weak are disposable; these types of arguments are already making it into the world at large?
I have mixed views on this.
It seems that many people of Earth (admittedly a limited cohort) are indeed fortified and benefited by a belief in a God, one which others might dismiss as merely conceptual or primitive.
Others might better benefit from jettisoning the concepts and templates of their sociomental surrounds, whether or not the notion of a Cosmic Intelligence is involved in their daily considerations.
3 edits
Personally, I value human beings and the amazing evolutionary journey they have made. For you, take God off the table and they are no better than maggots.
So you believe that evolution is a process that produces higher and higher value ?
This to me is like pushing a piano off of the top of a mountain. As it bounces and crashes down the slope, the sound coming out from it goes from dissonant chaos to finer and finer harmonic strictly timed music.
It starts at the top with a dreadful dissonant noise. But by the time it rolls to the bottom it is playing Bach's "Well Tempered Clavier" or a "Toccata and Fugue."
You are suggesting a miracle you know?
So random material interactions eventually gave rise to a consciousness that contemplated the meaning of its own existence in the universe?
2 edits
Ghost,
For you, take God off the table and they are no better than maggots.
I didn't take God off the table, you did, atheist.
You somehow intuitively know that you and a dolphin (or maggot) have some distance between yourselves. You being the higher creature.
I believe God the ground of preciousness and value BESTOWED that upon humanity out from Himself when He made us in His own image (Gen. 1:26)
You believe it came out that way by lucky accidents over big time.
Now I would like to know if this higher valued life is just being meandered around to as evolution proceeds with no purpose of goal?
Or is there some standard of higher value in living which existed to which evolution is climbing up gradually TOWARDS? I mean like waiting for evolution to ARRIVE?
Which philosophy would you hold ?
1.) transcendent value is being randomly created?
2.) transcendent value was always there awaiting for evolution's arrival?
@kellyjay saidThe world is already full of human beings who are void of God but full of compassion and love. We don't need this validated by an outside agency. (God).
How would human life without a belief in God and all of the vestiges that it brought to the human experience play out? Once the thought that human life is sacred has been removed the value from something holy would be replaced with that is useful and necessary. A humanist who held beliefs that held that all human life, the weak, the old, should be defended could draw on wha ...[text shortened]... ere the weak are disposable; these types of arguments are already making it into the world at large?
@sonship saidGod was never 'on' the table. (Nor for that matter 'random accidents' which is merely the mutterings of a confused Christian who has a poor understanding of the evolutionary process).
Ghost,For you, take God off the table and they are no better than maggots.
I didn't take God off the table, you did, atheist.
You somehow intuitively know that you and a dolphin (or maggot) have some distance between yourselves. You being the higher creature.
I believe God the ground of preciousness and value BESTOWED that upon humanity out from ...[text shortened]... s being randomly created?
2.) transcendent value was always there awaiting for evolution's arrival?
1 edit
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
All together now! "You don't understand Evolution."
God was never 'on' the table. (Nor for that matter 'random accidents' which is merely the mutterings of a confused Christian who has a poor understanding of the evolutionary process).
Bluffing.
No, I don't think you understand evolution more than I do.
No, I don't think I need to come to Ghost of a Duke for clarification on the theory of Evolution.
Probably I knew about it before you did. Atheist Evos their best to extract the randomness out of the occurrence of mutations (most of which are harmful) underlying natural selection.
On the side, the OP is is Humankind stronger without God.
The story of the tower of Babel in early Genesis makes a point that God said the people without Him could do whatever they wanted to. The implication is that man could be strong indeed.
The question is strong in what? God stopped the building of the tower because He said the united effort of man in unity could accomplish what THEY wanted to do. The catch is that what THEY wanted to do was not the best thing or the right thing that should be done, I think.
Strong, but nor strong in truth and righteousness.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidYes, and we have human sex trafficking, slavery, genocide taking place for the cleansing of either race, belief systems, gang territory as well where people are doing whatever is right in their own eyes. Without a standard that is higher than humanity, who is to say those things are not the way a man naturally behaves? Cheating on taxes, lying about sex, if these are all just the way of things with man, having a few kind people who are indeed loving will in your opinion be the rule, not the exception why? No one is void of God if you acknowledge He has written His laws on our hearts.
The world is already full of human beings who are void of God but full of compassion and love. We don't need this validated by an outside agency. (God).
@sonship saidAre you talking about the evolution of social norms, values and morals in human societies in order that people could govern their communal existence and so increase their ability to survive - enabling them to preserve and propagate their culture? Or are you talking about the evolution of species, cells with mutations, genetic variation etc. etc.?
No, I don't think you understand evolution more than I do.
No, I don't think I need to come to Ghost of a Duke for clarification on the theory of Evolution.