@kellyjay saidThe OP is about us being stronger without a God, that the morality we have as humans, separate from God and developed within our society, is compromised by such OT passages. As reasonable human beings, we would both (in all other situations) without hesitation condemn genocide and not be searching for mitigating causes.
That is not really an answer we can agree on many things that are not absolutes. If you are telling me it is wrong no matter what, that’s an absolute.
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The OP is about us being stronger without a God, that the morality we have as humans, separate from God and developed within our society, is compromised by such OT passages. As reasonable human beings, we would both (in all other situations) without hesitation condemn genocide and not be searching for mitigating causes.
The sense of secular morality which you boast is superior to God largly comes from the Judeo / Christian tradition.
When they told Thomas Jefferson to go into a room and not come out until he figured out where people get these rights they were fighting for, he eventually said it was self evident that all men were created equal.
Whether he wanted to give credit or not or admit it, I believe he was influenced by the Bible.
Who told him men were "created" at all ?
(Did you ever tell me you could identify "genocide" in the OT? I told you that clearly the Canaanite tribes were punished for what they DID more than for their ethnicity per se. Israel got punished for the very same things! )
@ghost-of-a-duke saidOkay I guess if you avoid context, claim absolutes while refusing to acknowledge them, cherry passages that stand apart from the rest of scripture, and only allow conversation that sees things the way you want them presented! I can see how you might reach that conclusion, being reasonable and all.
The OP is about us being stronger without a God, that the morality we have as humans, separate from God and developed within our society, is compromised by such OT passages. As reasonable human beings, we would both (in all other situations) without hesitation condemn genocide and not be searching for mitigating causes.
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Okay, let's narrow down the OP. The Christian God, as presented in the OT, has clearly carried out acts of genocide. (Let's just go with the whole great flood episode).
Society under a anarchy (no government) had reached its END in morality. That is a terminal point - it couldn't have gotten any WORSE - the end.
"And the earth was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence." (Gen. 6:11)
Would your superior secular sense of morality allowed unchecked violence to continue indefinitely ? What is so morally stronger about that ?
And God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted its way upon the earth. And God said to Noah, The END of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence because of them; ..." (v.12,13)
God should know when it cannot get any worse.
God should know what "the end" has been reached - "rock bottom" morally.
Remember, this was at a time when there was no ruling government. Everybody did what was right in their own eyes. It was a true ultra libertarian society, a anarchy in the true sense.
God strove with the human conscience to convict men and women. But He saw that such conviction in their conscience did not arrest the downward decline.
"And Jehovah said, My Spirit will not strive with man forever, for he indeed is flesh; so his days will be one hundred twenty years." (v.3)
Very intelligent people were living very long lives, almost 1,000 years.
(No they were no aliens from another planet with superior science. They were very LONG LIVING sinful humans.)
God saw that striving with their conscience would not stop the downward rotting of their "utopian" anarchy. And their thoughts were a continuous stream of evil.
"And Jehovah saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil CONTINUALLY." (v.5)
I regard it as God's love to future generations to show us how bad things CAN get. You apparently think it would have been better for such a world to continue uninterrupted by judgment and a new beginning from God.
Sinning nature was too powerful to overcome. They had the knowledge of good and evil but eventually could not arrest the evil.
So God left us an example for the future world. I'm thankful to His goodness in that.
Our well adjusted and moral human being, who would ordinarily abhor genocide in all its forms, will necessarily have to concede it is sometimes justified, if they happen to be a Christian.
I think you might have welcomed the degrading decline as "progressive" - ie. ROTTING morally is the permissive and tolerant way into a brave new world.
@chaney3 saidAn early Christian sect had a solution for the horrible acts of the OT god . They believed their were 2 gods . The evil (and less powerful god) was responsible for the creation event and the good god fixed everything with Jesus . They were called the Marcionites . It is a good read . Check it out .
The judgement fell upon children.
Are you aware of the 10th plague?
Edit: in fact, ALL 10 plagues affected innocent people.
@caissad4 saidExcept Christians believe there is only One God.
An early Christian sect had a solution for the horrible acts of the OT god . They believed their were 2 gods . The evil (and less powerful god) was responsible for the creation event and the good god fixed everything with Jesus . They were called the Marcionites . It is a good read . Check it out .
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There is one God Who went through a process to accomplish His plan.
Caissadr's showy selective appeal to the old heretical polytheism of the Gnostics changes this not, even if some Christians were caught up in the bad teaching.
The "Word was with God, and the Word was God" - the same God as throughout the entire Bible.
And "the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us." (John 1:14) God of the OT was incarnated as a man.
The "last Adam became a life giving Spirit." (1 Cor. 15:45) -
After accomplishing an eternal redemption in the most horrific act of allowing the Son of God to be crucified. There on the cross the Son bore caissadr's sins in His body on the cross, along with bearing the sins of all mankind.
He rose and became in a form in which He could come into our being to give divine life to us.
One three-one - triune God passing through two "becames" to carry out His economy.
@caissad4 saidA slight digression, but the Japanese have 2 words for God, one that describes his peaceful loving side and the other to describe his violent side.
An early Christian sect had a solution for the horrible acts of the OT god . They believed their were 2 gods . The evil (and less powerful god) was responsible for the creation event and the good god fixed everything with Jesus . They were called the Marcionites . It is a good read . Check it out .
The Christian God is clearly not omnibenevolent. He just isn't.
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This would be a more plausible position if the OT didn't exist.
There would be no sense at all to the Gospels without the Old Testament.
Starting with Matthew 1:1 - no sense at all -
"The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham."
Who are David and Abraham ???
@fmf saidWrong. You're just doing what you always do. You just can't seem to quit projecting your bias into what sonship is saying, so that what comes out of you is a mischaracterization of sonship's intent.
Meanwhile, sonship is claiming that people who don't share his religious beliefs cannot differentiate between maggots and human beings.
You won't be able to filter this through your position of disbelief, but it's not sonship's beliefs that matter. What matters is what God says relative to one's perceptions of reality.
God claims exclusivity. There is no other besides Him. God said so. I believe it. You don't.
End of discussion.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidThere is only One God, it is true in the OT, it is true in the NT. What people learned in the NT through Jesus Christ was why the OT said things like "let Us". With the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
This would be a more plausible position if the OT didn't exist.
Deuteronomy 6:4 English Standard Version (ESV)
“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
@caissad4 saidUnlike you, I'm not telling you things I don't know as truth.
The Marcionites were indeed Christians . The believed in one god being "superior" to a lesser god . Stop thumping your bible for a few minutes and read the history of YOUR religion . You are willfully ignorant , aren't you ?