Take a seat

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne

Whodey said

Nothing I could ever do or say could atone for my sins, how about you?

You didn't answer. But you did refer to an interesting passage out of Ezekiel 33.
(I appreciate your quotation of passages).

Then you conclude with:

Isn't placing your dogma above the words of God tantamount to saying "The way of the Lord is not right"?

While your case should be considered, WHY did you not precede it with a simple answer to the question ?

Will YOUR righteous deeds atone for your sins ThinkOfOne ?
Yes or No ?

After you have given a clear answer to that question, I would go on to your argument from Ezekiel 33. It is worth discussing.

And this is a genuine question. What in Ezekiel 33 or in the surrounding context, would cause you to think the words of God there are pertaining to eternal salvation ?

If I take God's warning there in Ezekiel 33 to be pertaining to eternal redemption then doesn't that make the entire need for Christ to come and accomplish redemption not necessary and not effective anyway ?

I see there speaking about living or dying.

If you teach that Ezekiel 33 negates John 3:16, for example, then why is it not YOU who are elevating dogma over the words of Scripture ?

Why then is it not YOU who are saying concerning the New Testament - "The way of the Lord is not right" ?

Originally posted by sonship
Whodey said

Nothing I could ever do or say could atone for my sins, how about you?

You didn't answer. But you did refer to an interesting passage out of [b]Ezekiel 33.
(I appreciate your quotation of passages).

Then you conclude with:

[quote] Isn't placing your dogma above the words of God tantamount to saying "The way o ...[text shortened]... [/i] who are saying concerning the New Testament - "The way of the Lord is not right" ? [/b]

C'mon jaywill. How do you think you manage to so consistently miss the point?

W: Nothing I could ever do or say could atone for my sins, how about you?
SS: You didn't answer. But you did refer to an interesting passage out of Ezekiel 33

The answer WAS "God sees it differently from you" and the quote from Ezekiel.
Whodey's dogma IS "Nothing I could ever do or say could atone for my sins...".
Hence, "Evidently you [whodey] place your dogma above the words of God".

Will YOUR righteous deeds atone for your sins ThinkOfOne ?
Yes or No ?

Read what God said in Ezekiel 33. What do you think God says is required so that "“None of his sins that he has committed will be remembered against him"?

Jesus echoes it here:

John 5
. 28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Originally posted by Rajk999
OK .. so you said this - ..It is our choice to seek him or reject him at our own peril.

Do you mind explaining further? Because my take on what is involved in seeking God and rejecting God appears to be different from yours.

To seek God [for me] is to seek after righteousness, the avoidance of sin and good works, becuase these are the things which Gods Son, Jesus who was sent, said that we should do to enter the Kingdom of God.

Our salvation is a gift from God and not earned.

Ephesians 2:8-9King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The story of the Good Samaritan I think is an illustration between the man-God relationship. We were lying half dead on the side of a road unable to help ourselves.

This should humble us.

I do nothing to earn salvation. At the same time, as a Christian, I'm not expected to continue in sin even though we may stumble at times. Through seeking God he can reveal to us how we tap into his power to overcome evil in our lives. It really has nothing to do with our goodness.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne

W: Nothing I could ever do or say could atone for my sins, how about you?
SS: You didn't answer. But you did refer to an interesting passage out of Ezekiel 33


Whodey's dogma IS "Nothing I could ever do or say could atone for my sins...".
Hence, "Evidently you [whodey] place your dogma above the words of God".

C'mon jaywill. How do you think you manage to so consistently miss the point?
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I see you. You're dodging the my question.

The answer WAS "God sees it differently from you" and the quote from Ezekiel.
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But my question to you was not "Hey ToO, How does God see it ?"
You used ellipsis "..." to cut off the portion concerning which I asked you for an answer.

The whole quotations from whodey was -

Nothing I could ever do or say could atone for my sins, how about you?

You appear to me to be intentionally dodging " ... how about you?"

So, again, how about YOU, ThinkOfOne ?
Is there something you could do or say that could atone for your sins ?

I think that should have been quite clear when I followed with -

Will YOUR righteous deeds atone for your sins ThinkOfOne ?
Yes or No ?

Read what God said in Ezekiel 33. What do you think God says is required so that "“None of his sins that he has committed will be remembered against him"?
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So then it should be rather easy for you to just answer the question for yourself one way or another. So why didn't you just have the courage to say "YES".

You expect that your righteous deeds will atone for your sins before God.
Correct ?

Come on and let's get into it. Maybe you'll change me to think like a Universalist.
Ya, never know.

So, just to be perfectly clear, You hope that YOUR righteous deeds today will justify you and atone for any unrighteous deeds done up until today? Right?

Do you think this salvation because of your righteous deeds is unto eternity ?
Or somewhat like Ezekiel's passage do you feel it just effects if you LIVE or DIE ?

You continue:

Jesus echoes it here:

. 28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

I will comment on John 5:28,29 in another post. But I take your inclusion of this verse with your Ezekiel 33 passage to mean that yes, you are placing your hope in your righteous works to atone for your sins.

If you turn the question around to me (and you didn't yet), I stand absolutely on the merit of Christ and not on my own merit. I will stand before God and tell Him that as far as the atonement of my sins is concerned I am 100% trusting Him to keep His word - the blood of Jesus Christ God's Son cleanses us from all sins.

But you should not take this as a belief the forgiveness is an end in itself. Or you should not take this to mean I think forgiveness from God is ALL that God cares about.

But the word used was atone. Someone said atone in English meanst AT ONE. For the atonement of my unrighteous deeds to be reconciled to God, I absolutely only have hope in Christ and His finished work on Calvary.

Continue latter.

Originally posted by whodey
Our salvation is a gift from God and not earned.

Ephesians 2:8-9King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The story of the Good Samaritan I think is an illustration between the man-God relationship. We were lying half dead on th ...[text shortened]... ap into his power to overcome evil in our lives. It really has nothing to do with our goodness.

Does it not bother you that Paul in the very same letter to Christian SAINTS, [not regular people], at Ephesus told them they are saved by grace through faith [it is a gift of God, and not of works], BUT ... IF they do not live righteous lives, they will not enter the Kingdom of God?

Clearly saved by grace does not guarantee entry into the Kingdom of God. Good works and righteousness must be followed otherwise there is no eternal life.

So saved by grace is not the whole story ... there is more if you read the whole of what Paul said.

As for your interpretation of the Good Samaritan story .. what you say is not in the Bible so thats like wind blowing to me .. I pay such interpretations no mind.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Does it not bother you that Paul in the very same letter to Christian SAINTS, [not regular people], at Ephesus told them they are saved by grace through faith [it is a gift of God, and not of works], BUT ... IF they do not live righteous lives, they will not enter the Kingdom of God?

Clearly saved by grace does not guarantee entry into the Kingdom of God. ...[text shortened]... say is not in the Bible so thats like wind blowing to me .. I pay such interpretations no mind.

The thief who died on the cross next to Jesus clearly did not have a chance to do "righteous works", yet he was saved. I view good works as a natural outflowing of what has taken place. Does that mean that people can't lose their salvation? I would not be so bold to say. Instead, I think we should be humble when talking about salvation. It's not ours to give or take away, that is the role of God alone. All we have are his words which we both have read for ourselves. What troubles me the most, I guess, is all this in fighting about salvation, as if all of us know exactly who will be saved and who will not. All I know is, there will be surprises for everyone. We need to stay humble.

Originally posted by whodey
The thief who died on the cross next to Jesus clearly did not have a chance to do "righteous works", yet he was saved. I view good works as a natural outflowing of what has taken place. Does that mean that people can't lose their salvation? I would not be so bold to say. Instead, I think we should be humble when talking about salvation. It's not ours to ...[text shortened]... and who will not. All I know is, there will be surprises for everyone. We need to stay humble.

Perhaps the biggest surprise for you sir will be when you get to the pearly gates and find righteous atheists waiting there to greet you.

Originally posted by whodey
The thief who died on the cross next to Jesus clearly did not have a chance to do "righteous works", yet he was saved. I view good works as a natural outflowing of what has taken place. Does that mean that people can't lose their salvation? I would not be so bold to say. Instead, I think we should be humble when talking about salvation. It's not ours to ...[text shortened]... and who will not. All I know is, there will be surprises for everyone. We need to stay humble.

I agree, stay humble and follow Christ.

The doctrine you preach is to stay humble and forget Christ and his commandments as you are saved by professing your faith. Nothing again is required ... which the Bible does not say at all.

Originally posted by whodey
The thief who died on the cross next to Jesus clearly did not have a chance to do "righteous works", yet he was saved. I view good works as a natural outflowing of what has taken place. Does that mean that people can't lose their salvation? I would not be so bold to say. Instead, I think we should be humble when talking about salvation. It's not ours to ...[text shortened]... and who will not. All I know is, there will be surprises for everyone. We need to stay humble.

This desire to compare people without knowing the facts is the downfall of many Christians, and they do this comparison in order to delude themselves [if that were possible]. eg I have heard some say that David was a murderer and an adulterer ... therefore they are better than David.

You are doing the same with the thief on the cross. Dont compare yourself. Follow Christ and you will be ok .. dont follow Christ and you are in trouble... your choice.

I notice also that you accept Paul in Ephesians 2, but seems to want to ignore Paul in Ephesians 5. There are dozens of Christians who are/were saved by grace through faith but who will not enter the kingdom of God. So your doctrine is incomplete.

Originally posted by Rajk999
[b]I agree, stay humble and follow Christ.

The doctrine you preach is to stay humble and forget Christ

You do realize that these two comments are contradictory, right?

How could I be preaching both?

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Perhaps the biggest surprise for you sir will be when you get to the pearly gates and find righteous atheists waiting there to greet you.

No man will make it on their own righteousness.

For example, if you murder someone, you are a murderer. No amount of "good works" can ever make that right. Only through the blood of Christ can we make it.

So you reject Christ and expect to make it?

Good luck.

Originally posted by whodey
No man will make it on their own righteousness.

For example, if you murder someone, you are a murderer. No amount of "good works" can ever make that right. Only through the blood of Christ can we make it.

So you reject Christ and expect to make it?

Good luck.

No man will make it on their own righteousness.

And yet there is Moses speaking for God in Deuteronomy 30, Isaiah speaking for God in Isaiah 1, God in Ezekiel 33, Jesus in John 5, etc. all saying otherwise.

So you reject Christ and expect to make it?

Ultimately those who REJECT Jesus are those who do not KEEP His commandments.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]No man will make it on their own righteousness.

And yet there is Moses speaking for God in Deuteronomy 30, Isaiah speaking for God in Isaiah 1, God in Ezekiel 33, Jesus in John 5, etc. all saying otherwise.

So you reject Christ and expect to make it?

Ultimately those who REJECT Jesus are those who do not KEEP His commandments.[/b]

Well said.

Originally posted by whodey
You do realize that these two comments are contradictory, right?

How could I be preaching both?

No they are not.

Let me ask you it another way. How does your 'acceptance of Christ' manifest itself.?

Is it something you say?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]No man will make it on their own righteousness.

And yet there is Moses speaking for God in Deuteronomy 30, Isaiah speaking for God in Isaiah 1, God in Ezekiel 33, Jesus in John 5, etc. all saying otherwise.

So you reject Christ and expect to make it?

Ultimately those who REJECT Jesus are those who do not KEEP His commandments.[/b]

Like Jesus said, those who love Him will keep his commandments, those who dont love Him will not keep His commandments.

So for Christians to say, faith + nothing = eternal life is contrary to Christ who said faith + keeping his commandments = eternal life.