Originally posted by Rajk999
Did the bible say this : The unbelievers are [b]"those who have practiced evil", specifically the evil of unbelief in Christ.[/b]

Did the bible say this : The unbelievers are "those who have practiced evil", specifically the evil of unbelief in Christ.
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ThinkofOne like to say I ignore context. But according to the context of the whole of John 5, the best interpretation is that the practice of evil there must be the unbelief in Christ and God Who sent Him (verse verse 24).

It also, according to context, should be practice of the evil of not honoring the Son as the Father is honored (verse 22,23).

'Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes Him who sent Me HAS ETERNAL LIFE, and does not come into judgment but has PASSED ...out of death into life." (verse 24)

The good is to receive life from the Son.
The evil is to reject life from the Son.

The Son Who gives life is to be honored as the Father Who gives life.
The Son into whose hands judgment is placed is to be honored as God the Father.

"For just as Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom He wills. (v.21)

For neither does the Father judge anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, (v.22)

In order that all may honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him." (v.23)

The context is about the Son being God really.
The context is believing the Son is God and receiving life from Him.
And the context is not being judged by the Son because of believing in the Son.

ThinkofOne attempts teach that Jesus is teaching that good deeds will atone for one's sins. The main thing for him is to use John 5 to prove Ezekiel 33 teaches a justification by doing righteous deeds.

Its an argument. But IMO it is not strong enough to accomplish negating Justification by Faith.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne

Are you going to speak to what was said in Deuteronomy 30? Do you believe that Moses was lying about speaking for God? Do you believe that God was lying?

The word that Moses spoke to them in Deuteronomy included all the offerings by which their sins were covered over. Until Christ came as the fulfillment of all these offerings, they needed them all.

It is very much precluded that the Isrealites, in keeping the words of the law, were to trust God in the offerings which mandatory. God knew that they would need the sin offereing, the trespass offering, the peace offering, the consecration offering. etc. All of these were shadows and types of the Son of God Who was to come.

I think what you are implying is that God believed is was no big deal for them ( minus these atoning sacrifices) to keep all other aspects of His law. Neither the Old Testament or the New furnishes ground for me to believe this.

Do you believe that God was lying to Cain here?
Genesis 4
6And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

God told Cain that he would do well, Yes. He did not tell Cain that he would be sinless.

And, while we're remembering "context", the context of doing well was offering a sacrifice with blood for atonement. That is to have faith in the blood atonement.

If you push back that the blood was not spoken of in that chapter, I would agree that there is no explicit mention of the blood. But context again should be considered. We are told without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness, latter (Hebrews 9:22 comp. Leviticus 17:11) .

Cain and Abel most likely LEARNED this worship through their parents - Adam and Eve.
Explicitly, in Genesis we are not taught that. It is however, the best explanation.

Their offerings were done based on what God had told Adam and Eve who passed it own to their children. Abel offered according to faith in that. Cain offered by inventing his own variation of that. Cain was really the inventor of religion. Or if you prefer, Cain was the inventor of the first man-made religion. Ie. a faith not based on revelation but on his own good idea out of his natural mind.

I would anticipate your objection to this because you probably do not regard the book of Hebrews as the New Testament canon of divinely inspired oracles of God. But I take both Leviticus and Hebrews as God's word.

And we are explicitly told that what Abel offered he offered by faith. The contrast should be that Cain did NOT offer what he offered by faith but rather by presumption.

For Cain to "do well" then would have been for Cain to have had FAITH .... like Abel.

" By FAITH Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain ..." (Heb. 11:4a)

Just because a system of sacrifices was set up for those who sin, doesn't necessarily mean that "all men sin" or that no one can stop committing sin. Can you really not understand that?

You didn't ask me. But I'll reply in another post.

ToO:

Just because a system of sacrifices was set up for those who sin, doesn't necessarily mean that "all men sin" or that no one can stop committing sin. Can you really not understand that?

There is really no need to go to the New Testament to show this is not true. Even in the oldest book of the Old Testament we can see that it isn't the case.

Consider the rhetorical question asked by these most ancient sages:

"How then can man be righteous with God?

And how can one born of a woman be pure?" (Job 25:4)

The rhetorical question is asked showing man cannot be more righteous than God.

"Can a mortal man be more righteous than God? Can a man be purer than his maker?" (Job 4:17)

Job says that man cannot either be more righteous than God or even righteous before God.

" Then Job answered and said, I do indeed know that it is so. But how can a man be righteous before God?

If he is pleased to contend with Him, He cannot answer Him one thing in a thousand." (Job 9:1-3)

It will be futile for a sinning man to stand before God and try to justify himself.

These words were spoken around the time God was calling Abraham. It is long before the giving of the law of Moses. Godly men already realized we are born into this world as sinful.

You know that the book begins with God boasting to Satan that Job is exceptional on the earth. That is not that Job is completely sinless. But comparatively so to other men, he is righteous.

So before the New Testament the Psalms also tell us that no one alive is righteous before God.

"And do not enter into judgment with Your servant, For no one alive is righteous in Your sight." (Psalm 142:2)

So though we do have Noah, Job, Daniel and a few others who were said to be righteous comparatively so, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Jesus Christ alone was the righteous man on earth to be the propitiatory sacrifice for us all.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] Read what God said in Ezekiel 33. What do you think God says is required so that "“None of his sins that he has committed will be remembered against him"?

Jesus echoes it here:
John 5
. 28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to ...[text shortened]... ment of [b]John 5:28,29. It does not purport to deal with all issues related to this matter.[/b]

Listen, if you think that you can make it to heaven just trying to good then have at it.

The gospel is a message to sinners like me and it is good news, like the thief who died next to Jesus who did not deserve salvation but obtained it through faith.

Maybe people like you are too good for the gospel and don't need it. Or maybe you will try to do enough works to outweigh your bad so that your bad works that harmed other people will just be magically forgotten without any justice to the person harmed. If so, you win a cookie.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Did the bible say this : The unbelievers are [b]"those who have practiced evil", specifically the evil of unbelief in Christ.[/b]

The # 1 commandment is to love your God with all your heart and to love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus further says that the love of God is to keep his commandments. This is how you should frame your argument, and I agree. What I'm saying though is, at times we still fall short, but may Christians never stay there. Christ has devised a plan to free us from sin and it is up to us to seek his power to free us if we become entangled.

Originally posted by whodey
Listen, if you think that you can make it to heaven just trying to good then have at it.

The gospel is a message to sinners and it is good news, like the thief who died next to Jesus who did not deserve salvation but obtained it through faith.

Maybe people like you are too good for the gospel and don't need it. If so, you win a cookie.

Was this meant for me, sonship?

You totally lost me.
I'm suppose to be the one with bad reading comprehension here!

Here I am speaking strongly about Justification by Faith and you come at me with this post ???

Was this post meant for someone else ?
Oh well.

Could you show me one clear passage about God saying "going to heaven" was the eternal destiny of the saved? I never write about being saved to go to heaven. I prefer the emphasis of the New Testament.

What does Romans 8:28,29 say the destiny of the saved man or woman must be ?
Look carefully at verse 29.

Originally posted by sonship
Was this meant for me, sonship?

You totally lost me.
I'm suppose to be the one with bad reading comprehension here!

Here I am speaking strongly about Justification by Faith and you come at me with this post ???

Was this post meant for someone else ?
Oh well.

Could you show me one clear passage about God saying "going to heaven" was the eter ...[text shortened]... 29 say the destiny of the saved man or woman must be ?
Look carefully at verse 29. [/b]

Sorry, I thought I cited TOO, not for you. 😳

Originally posted by whodey
The # 1 commandment is to love your God with all your heart and to love your neighbor as yourself. Jesus further says that the love of God is to keep his commandments. This is how you should frame your argument, and I agree. What I'm saying though is, at times we still fall short, but may Christians never stay there. Christ has devised a plan to free us from sin and it is up to us to seek his power to free us if we become entangled.

So some Christians fall short and stay there and some dont stay there.

What happens to the ones that stays there. Are they still saved?

Originally posted by Rajk999
So some Christians fall short and stay there and some dont stay there.

What happens to the ones that stays there. Are they still saved?

Once saved always saved. Under the law one can fall away and return again to faith, but under grace one is eternally secure from the moment they trust in Christ. God knows who they are.

Then there are those that think they know God, but Jesus will say to them "I never knew you".

It's a tricky business to assume to judge who specifically is lost or saved. Generally speaking, those that reject Christ are lost.

Are you not aware of the Bema seat judgement of believers by Jesus Christ? It's not for sin, but for things done in the body whether good or bad. There believers will receive reward, or suffer loss.

Originally posted by Rajk999
So some Christians fall short and stay there and some dont stay there.

What happens to the ones that stays there. Are they still saved?

Do I know the hearts of men?

No.

Originally posted by josephw
Once saved always saved. Under the law one can fall away and return again to faith, but under grace one is eternally secure from the moment they trust in Christ. God knows who they are.

Then there are those that think they know God, but Jesus will say to them "I never knew you".

It's a tricky business to assume to judge who specifically is lost or sa ...[text shortened]... hings done in the body whether good or bad. There believers will receive reward, or suffer loss.

The following is not in the Bible and as a result I know of no such thing:
- once saved always saved
- bema

Plus Jesus did not say 'I never knew you', to those who thought they knew God. He said that to workers of iniquity. Read the damn Bible.

Originally posted by whodey
Do I know the hearts of men?

No.

I agree.

Some claim they are still saved.. I guess you disagree.

Originally posted by Rajk999
The following is not in the Bible and as a result I know of no such thing:
- once saved always saved
- bema

Plus Jesus did not say 'I never knew you', to those who thought they knew God. He said that to workers of iniquity. Read the damn Bible.

JUDGMENT AT THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST

How will God give us the reward? The time for us to be rewarded is when Christ comes again to execute judgment. Peter tells us that judgment begins from the house of God. In the future, God will judge the Christians first, before He judges the worldly people. Concerning what will God judge us? He will not judge us for eternal salvation or perdition. That judgment has been taken care of on the cross. All our sins have been judged on the cross, and the problem of eternal perdition has been resolved. But we Christians will be judged in the future. That judgment will determine whether or not we will participate in the kingdom. For some, not only will there not be participation in the kingdom, but there will be punishment as well. At that time, Christ will set up the judgment seat, and He will judge His believers at that judgment seat.

We will read two verses which are even clearer concerning this matter. Second Corinthians 5:10 says, "For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done through the body according to what he has practiced, whether good or bad." Every one of us who has believed in the Lord will be manifested before the judgment seat. The word "judgment seat" is bema in the original Greek. It means a raised platform. Bema is the place where matters are settled in the family. This verse says that we must all be manifested before the judgment seat that each may be recompensed according to what he has practiced. Eternal salvation or death is a matter of believing. But the judgment of a Christian is according to what he practices, whether good or evil. This is the judgment before the judgment seat.

Regarding the kingdom, there are a few things which we must know. Whether or not one can enter into the kingdom is one thing. Even if one can enter into the kingdom, there will still be a difference of position in the kingdom. If one cannot enter into the kingdom, he will go into outer darkness or will be chastised. Therefore, after we have believed in the Lord, though our good work cannot save us, it will determine our status in the kingdom. Thank God that the question of our eternal life or death is settled, but we will still be judged before the judgment seat of Christ. That judgment is not for determining our eternal life or death. It is for determining our position in the kingdom.

From The Collected Works of Watchman Nee, The (Set 2) Vol. 29: The Gospel of God (2) by Watchman Nee [my bolding]

http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=3B55A702C8

And if you can't take it from Watchman Nee for some weird reason then you should read D. M. Panton's excellent treatment of the subject:

The Judgement Seat of Christ by D. M. Panton (only 79 pages)

Schoettle Publishing Co.
P.O. Box 1246
Hayattesville, NC.

706-896-3333

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] [b] JUDGMENT AT THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST

How will God give us the reward? The time for us to be rewarded is when Christ comes again to execute judgment. Peter tells us that judgment begins from the house of God. In the future, God will judge the Christians first, before He judges the worldly people. Concerning what will God judge us? He w ...[text shortened]... (only 79 pages)

Schoettle Publishing Co.
P.O. Box 1246
Hayattesville, NC.

706-896-3333[/b]

Not interested in the writings and interpretations of men .. look at where you ended up by doing that.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Not interested in the writings and interpretations of men .. look at where you ended up by doing that.

Is that suppose to be an impressive display of someone standing firmly for what the Bible teaches? I'm not going to be impressed with you.

All you convey to me is a stubborn person who out of nothing but sheer will power, won't listen to a clear teaching of the New Testament.