The Book of Amos

Originally posted by rwingett
That is the topic for another day. This topic is about the Book of Amos. Do you have anything relevant to that discussion or not?

The topic is really about the author of Amos and his thought process. So once again I ask you, did the author of Amos think that the Founding Fathers of his religion to be immoral and at odds with his God for his wealth? If so, what evidence do you have for this? If not, then you have misread his quote.

Originally posted by whodey
The topic is really about the author of Amos and his thought process. So once again I ask you, did the author of Amos think that the Founding Fathers of his religion to be immoral and at odds with his God for his wealth? If so, what evidence do you have for this? If not, then you have misread his quote.

Stick to the topic.

Originally posted by rwingett
Stick to the topic.

Well the quote is referring to the "rich" trampling and cheating the poor. I think that the example of Abraham and Job is spot on topic because they NEVER did so even though they were men of "wealth".

Originally posted by rwingett
Thomas Jefferson said that Revelation was "merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams."

Who cares what he said, besides you?

Originally posted by whodey
Well the quote is referring to the "rich" trampling and cheating the poor. I think that the example of Abraham and Job is spot on topic because they NEVER did so even though they were men of "wealth".

OK. Thanks for your participation.

Originally posted by daniel58
Who cares what he said, besides you?

He knows from other threads that I often quote the Founding Fathers when it comes to political debates. In fact, I value much of what Jefferson wrote and thought about politcal matters and I think that is why he brought it up. As for religious matters, however, Jefferson, like Rwingett, embraced most of Christs teachings for the most part, until it bordes on the supernatural. Of course, who doesn't embrace many of his teachings. It simply shows you have a pulse.

Originally posted by rwingett
OK. Thanks for your participation.

You betcha!! 😀

Originally posted by rwingett
Who would like to join a discussion about the Book of Amos? This isn’t a book that gets as much attention as some of the junk, like Revalation, but I think it is much more interesting.

I will start by noting the strong anti-commercial, anti-capitalist stance taken in Amos. Some would claim it is only a condemnation of the excesses of a capitalist mode o ...[text shortened]... pise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.[/i]

Alright, that’s enough to get us started.

I don't see it as an attack on anti-commericial, anti-capitalist stance
as much as a attack on those that trample upon the needy which are
two different things. People who abuse the poor should beware what
is coming their way will not be something enjoyable.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I don't see it as an attack on anti-commericial, anti-capitalist stance
as much as a attack on those that trample upon the needy which are
two different things. People who abuse the poor should beware what
is coming their way will not be something enjoyable.
Kelly

Of course you don't. Because like most Christians in developed western nations, you've been trained to view the bible through a pro-capitalist lens. It skews your interpretation. Plus certain parts of the bible are highlighted while certain other parts take a back seat. The parts about personal salvation are given prominence, while the parts about social justice are relegated to a secondary status. This is significant because personal salvation is an individual, solitary issue, while social justice is a collective one. In your view, the former is independent from the latter, while in mine the former is subordinated to, and dependent upon, the latter. It is instructive to note that Liberation Theology developed in poor, third world countries, and not in rich, developed ones.

You will note that in Amos, god's punishment upon Israel will take be of a collective nature. He is sending the Assyrians to destroy Israel. This will have ramifications for everyone, not just the evil people (even though they may get special attention). And at the end of Amos there is the possibility that when the people have collectively returned to the fold that Israel will be restored. These are social punishments and social rewards, not individual ones. In Amos, it seems that god will tolerate a certain amount of evil as long as society on the whole behaves well. But when evil reaches a certain critical tipping point, it unleashes god's wrath upon the nation as a whole. The point is that in Amos, being right with god requires social justice and not individual piety. This point is emphasized in 5:81-84. God doesn't want their pious blessings. He wants to see "justice roll down like waters, and righteousness like an everflowing stream."

Originally posted by rwingett
Who would like to join a discussion about the Book of Amos? This isn’t a book that gets as much attention as some of the junk, like Revalation, but I think it is much more interesting.

I will start by noting the strong anti-commercial, anti-capitalist stance taken in Amos. Some would claim it is only a condemnation of the excesses of a capitalist mode o ...[text shortened]... pise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.[/i]

Alright, that’s enough to get us started.

do you not think my learned friend that it was not so much the 'for profit', culture as you have asserted, but on the greed and lack of honesty, the lack of compassion and concern for those in need and the disregard for human dignity that accompanied it that appears so reprehensible. It appears to me that this was indeed the case, thus it is not so much the system that they were employing (for all who enter into business do so with the hope that a profit shall be realised), but their abuse of that system and the motivation for doing so. It may be argued of course that it was the system itself that fomented the corruption, but i doubt that this shall suffice, for Paul clearly states the reason why at least a Christian should engage in business,

(Ephesians 4:28) . . ., but rather let him do hard work, doing with his hands what is good work, that he may have something to distribute to someone in need. . .

🙂

Originally posted by rwingett
Of course you don't. Because like most Christians in developed western nations, you've been trained to view the bible through a pro-capitalist lens. It skews your interpretation. Plus certain parts of the bible are highlighted while certain other parts take a back seat. The parts about personal salvation are given prominence, while the parts about social ju ...[text shortened]... nts to see "justice roll down like waters, and righteousness like an everflowing stream."

Of course you see it the way you do too, because of how your skewed
as well, a meaningless statement! I am again looking purely at the
text, and it is what they did the poor to aquire wealth that they are
being rebuked for, not for aquiring wealth alone! Why add the poor
into the mix if all that mattered was their getting rich was the issue? If
getting rich or power alone was evil than nothing else mattered, the
reason those two things are highlighted as bad is because of the
lenghts people are willing to go to aquire them both, many are more
than willing to harm others to do it, and that is the bad thing!

All parts of the scripture need read and understood in the light of all
other text! Social justice is not relegated to secondary status it is your
prejudce about western nations to even suggest such a thing.

I'm not sure what you think Liberation Theology means or why it is of
any importance to reading this text!

God punishments are against the nation for its ills, not just the rich,
because you do not have to be rich to harm others for wealth and
power. God does give us plenty of room to turn our lives around but
at a various times or levels of evil, that gets shut off!

I'd also don't see why you think wealth or getting wealth alone is bad
when throughout scripture when people are being blessed by God they
more than likely aquire a lot of wealth in the blessing. The point with
them is they keep it in proper perspective so it does not ruin them. It
is the love of money not money that is evil, and you do not have to
be wealthy to love it!
Kelly

Originally posted by whodey
The topic is really about the author of Amos and his thought process. So once again I ask you, did the author of Amos think that the Founding Fathers of his religion to be immoral and at odds with his God for his wealth? If so, what evidence do you have for this? If not, then you have misread his quote.

there were no founding fathers of his religion, that is an idiotic statement. God founded his religion, and set the statutes and rules. as a prophet he was called by God to hold people accountable.

advice: don't let 21st century political dogma get confused with 3000 year old theology

Originally posted by rwingett
Of course you don't. Because like most Christians in developed western nations, you've been trained to view the bible through a pro-capitalist lens. It skews your interpretation. Plus certain parts of the bible are highlighted while certain other parts take a back seat. The parts about personal salvation are given prominence, while the parts about social ju nts to see "justice roll down like waters, and righteousness like an everflowing stream."

For the most part I agree.

As people of faith we are to strive for holiness in all we do (1 Peter 1:15-17 (New International Version)
15But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy.)

There are 2 types of holiness, personal holiness and social holiness, or inward conduct (thoughts attitudes etc...) and how we interact with others in an outward conduct. we cannot be the complete faithful disciples of Christ if we practice one and ignore or give short shrift to the others. If a person works tirelessly for the poor, but ignores their prayer life and inwardly covet, hate, or resent others they are out of balance.
If a person spends hours in prayer and study, and diligently seek to improve themselves spiritualy, yet ignore the injustice in the world around them, they are out of balance.
Finally: Christ said in Matthew 25: 34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

case closed; feed the poor, heal the sick, comfort the prisoners, or God will NOT know you

Originally posted by rwingett
you've been trained to view the bible through a pro-capitalist lens. It skews your interpretation.

Whereas you have a truly unbiased view of these issues and only comment from your lofty seat of pure objectivity. 🙄

I genuinely enjoy your posts rwingett, but please keep your own feet on the ground too.

Originally posted by divegeester
Whereas you have a truly unbiased view of these issues and only comment from your lofty seat of pure objectivity. 🙄

I genuinely enjoy your posts rwingett, but please keep your own feet on the ground too.

It's true. All Christians have been raised in a particular way of interpreting the bible. Or their culture stresses a particular mode of interpretation. They have the power to alter these views, of course, but their initial understanding of Christianity is bestowed to them. And they naturally grow up being defenders of that viewpoint.

In my case, I had very little religious instruction growing up. I have no pre-formed adherence to any particular viewpoint. And, as an atheist, I am not beholden to read the bible in a devotional fashion. I can read it in a historical-critical fashion. This, I think, is a great advantage. It frees me from having to conform to any of the Pauline mythology which clutters much of the bible. Like Jefferson, I can take what is useful and discard what is nonsensical, obsolete or injurious.