The Book of Amos

Originally posted by duecer
For the most part I agree.

As people of faith we are to strive for holiness in all we do (1 Peter 1:15-17 (New International Version)
15But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy.)

There are 2 types of holiness, personal holiness and social holiness, or inward conduct (thoughts atti ...[text shortened]... ed the poor, heal the sick, comfort the prisoners, or God will NOT know you

Even if we accept that contemporary Christianity regards faith and works as being complementary, it is abundantly clear that works takes a distant back seat to faith. The inward looking concern with personal salvation has all but eclipsed the outward looking concern with collective, social salvation. This, I think, is a disastrous inversion of the equation. Faith should serve a subservient role to works and not the other way around. Right action is more important than right belief.

Originally posted by rwingett
Even if we accept that contemporary Christianity regards faith and works as being complementary, it is abundantly clear that works takes a distant back seat to faith. The inward looking concern with personal salvation has all but eclipsed the outward looking concern with collective, social salvation. This, I think, is a disastrous inversion of the equation. ...[text shortened]... nt role to works and not the other way around. Right action is more important than right belief.

I disagree, I believe both are equally necessary for a harmonius society. Unfortunaly you are correct in that there is too much inward looking and concern about salvation, and the outward concern too often is simply prosyltizing, instead of service to humanity.

Originally posted by duecer
I disagree, I believe both are equally necessary for a harmonius society. Unfortunaly you are correct in that there is too much inward looking and concern about salvation, and the outward concern too often is simply prosyltizing, instead of service to humanity.

I don't think it's possible to treat them equally. As a practical necessity one must give priority to one or the other. The danger with faith and the concern for personal salvation is that it stresses a view toward the "next world" to the detriment of this one. Works, on the other hand, is firmly rooted in this one. As we cannot have any factual knowledge of the "next world", works should take precedence.

Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. Do you have faith?

Faith without works is (indeed) dead

Works without faith is to please ones 'self'

Originally posted by divegeester
Without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God. Do you have faith?

Faith without works is (indeed) dead

Works without faith is to please ones 'self'

Sez you!

Originally posted by rwingett
Sez you!

I won't claim to be an expert on Amos (or any of the bible) but the passage you were highlighting obviously did not denigrate hard work or the profit motive. It sounded to me like it was attacking those who use the hard work of others to accrue a profit out of proportion to their contribution (in other words capitalists.) I thought the bible was pretty clear about the evil of usury ([ Leviticus 25:37] You shall not give him your money on usury, nor lend him your victuals for increase." ) and without that how can you even have capitalism? Capitalism is not "people work hard for their own living." Every system that's ever existed has been that way for most people! Capitalism is the use of wealth as an instrument to create more wealth ("god bless the chile who's got his own." ) This infantile belief that smoking fat cigars and living off the work of others is "hard work" is what caused the global collapse we're living thru and I hate to tell you the cigars have not been smoked up - there's more to come. If people cared about each other instead of just allegiance to some ideas then we might not only survive but (as Faulkner said) prevail. I'm not exactly hopeful about that.

OK, we have seen two primary themes in Amos. The first theme is that the people have sinned against god. And chief amongst these sins is love of money, commercialism, capitalism, disregard for the poor, exploitation, etc. The second theme is the collective nature of god's punishments and rewards. For their sins, god will send the Assyrians to attack Israel, just as they were attacked by the Babylonians, the Romans and others. This affects everyone, not just the wicked. And at the end of Amos, there is the possibility of a collective restoration if the people amend their ways.

So far so good.

Now let us skip ahead to Jesus. I'm going to read between the lines, so to speak, strip away the Pauline mythology, and give you my interpretation of what he was talking about. First of all, Jesus was a Jewish apocalypticist. Apocalypticism had become a common feature by that time, with many predicting the coming of a new age. Jesus emerged from that tradition with his preaching of the coming Kingdom of god. This would be a radical break in history, with the old order giving way to the new.

What Jesus is talking about is the type of transformation, or restoration, that is mentioned at the end of Amos (9:11-15). But it is conditional upon the people amending their ways and returning to god. I have mentioned the sins that brought about god's punishment earlier. Greed, corruption, love of money, exploitation, etc. In order for the Kingdom to be actualized, they must do the opposite and abandon those sins. The capitalist collaborationists on this site claim that they merely need to be minimized, but I strongly disagree. The worship of mammon needs to be eliminated, not just kept in "proper perspective." And therefore we see in Acts (2:42-45 and 4:32-35) that the Kingdom will be a collective socialistic arrangement where the profit motive will be absent, where the last shall be first and where "justice (will) roll down like waters, and righteousness like an everflowing stream."

It is abundantly clear that this Kingdom was expected within the very near future. Within their lifetime. But it didn't happen. Jesus died. Years passed and more people died without the kingdom ever coming. So, in light of this unfulfilled expectation, Paul came along and changed everything. Instead of the Kingdom being a collective occurrence in this world, he changed it to being an individualistic one in the next world. The dynamic was altered completely.

With Jesus, the people were expected to change their ways and do the hard work necessary to build the kingdom themselves. Then god would restore his favor to them. But they didn't, so the Kingdom never came. Instead, with Paul, the Kingdom is some mystical future phenomenon that requires them to do nothing but wait. Well, it isn't coming. Revelation is a complete waste of time. As long as people continue with their love of money, commercialism, capitalism, disregard for the poor and exploitation, the Kingdom will never come. But if people displayed a little less pious faith and a greater inclination toward building a more just world, the Kingdom will become self-actualized. And they will be restored to god's favor.

Originally posted by rwingett
OK, we have seen two primary themes in Amos. The first theme is that the people have sinned against god. And chief amongst these sins is love of money, commercialism, capitalism, disregard for the poor, exploitation, etc. The second theme is the collective nature of god's punishments and rewards. For their sins, god will send the Assyrians to attack Israel, ...[text shortened]... d, the Kingdom will become self-actualized. And they will be restored to god's favor.

I believe you've not only miss read Amos you don't understand the
Kingdom of God too. The Kingdom of God has come, God's people
are doing what God commands, you may be looking for nations I'm
not sure exactly where you think the Kingdom is, but it is a living
breathing body on the earth. God has His own people, the numbers
maybe be small on the planet when you look at the whole but that
does not mean it isn't here and doing what God commands.
Kelly

Originally posted by rwingett
OK, we have seen two primary themes in Amos. The first theme is that the people have sinned against god. And chief amongst these sins is love of money, commercialism, capitalism, disregard for the poor, exploitation, etc. The second theme is the collective nature of god's punishments and rewards. For their sins, god will send the Assyrians to attack Israel, ...[text shortened]... d, the Kingdom will become self-actualized. And they will be restored to god's favor.

I thought we were talking about Amos?

Originally posted by duecer
I thought we were talking about Amos?

I started talking about Amos so we could get that clear in our heads. My ulterior motive, obviously, was to later tie Jesus into the themes explored in Amos.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I believe you've not only miss read Amos you don't understand the
Kingdom of God too. The Kingdom of God has come, God's people
are doing what God commands, you may be looking for nations I'm
not sure exactly where you think the Kingdom is, but it is a living
breathing body on the earth. God has His own people, the numbers
maybe be small on the planet ...[text shortened]... look at the whole but that
does not mean it isn't here and doing what God commands.
Kelly

Nonsense. I don't see how you can possibly make such a statement.

Originally posted by rwingett
Nonsense. I don't see how you can possibly make such a statement.

Really you start claiming what Amos was decrying as evil and getting
that wrong, then you start talking God's Kingdom as if you had a clue.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Really you start claiming what Amos was decrying as evil and getting
that wrong, then you start talking God's Kingdom as if you had a clue.
Kelly

If the Kingdom has already come, then it's a pretty big disappointment.

Originally posted by rwingett
If the Kingdom has already come, then it's a pretty big disappointment.

How would you know, you don't how to see it, or where to look for it?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
How would you know, you don't how to see it, or where to look for it?
Kelly

And how do you see it, Kelly? If you put a quarter under your pillow at night does St. Paul grant you a half hour dream of his imaginary Kingdom?