Originally posted by SuzianneIn my experience, most thoughtful atheists can relate to certain aspects of a Christian way of life, at least when these aspects do in fact exist and are put into action, such as love of neighbour, loyalty, patience, diligence, compassion, honesty and sincerity. Granted, these kinds of things are not always on display but when they are they comprise something that could be seen as "sensible" by pretty much anybody, whether they be religious or non-religious. I think a Christian could be satisfied for commanding respect for exhibiting these attributes even if it is rooted in beliefs that a non-believer does not share.
What about God is sensible to an atheist? And should a Christian be proud to be called "sensible" by atheists?
17 Oct 14
Originally posted by lemon limeI don't see how an atheist or non-believer would praise a Christian for his or her "theology" as such, but many Christians are very generous of spirit and philanthropic as well as responsible and tolerant, and even if these kinds of commendable characteristics are based on a theology that is not subscribed to by the non-believers in question, I can't see any reason for them be inhibited about praising them for things that are praiseworthy.
Should any atheist be proud for praising a Christian for his sensible doctrine/theology?
17 Oct 14
Originally posted by lemon limeYou said specifically that divegeester "undermines the faith of other Christians". In what way has your faith been undermined by things he has said? And if it's not your faith that has been undermined, which Christians that you have seen him talk to on this forum do you think have had their faith undermined? Perhaps you have certain Christian posters in mind.
If he told me he was a monkey who could type in messages here, I would do the same and reserve judgement until I was sure if he really is a monkey who can type in messages here.
17 Oct 14
Originally posted by lemon limeAnd I'm a Catholic Priest pretending to be an atheists
I don't know if divegeester is a Christian or not.
Anyone can say he is a Christian. You could say you are a Christian.
(so that I can infiltrate their secret groups) and you
are a Satanist posing as a mad Christian.
You just cant trust anyone these days.
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Originally posted by lemon limeDo you think it is in line with the teachings of Christ to accuse another Christian of undermining the faith of other Christians and then lack the courage and decency to demonstrate why you have made this accusation?
Okay then, I'll say it again... and maybe this time one or two of you will actually read this, and understand what I'm saying.
I don't know if divegeester is a Christian or not.
(Did you get it this time? Do you understand what it means?)
I don't know because I haven't seen any evidence of it. Anyone can say he is a Christian. You c ...[text shortened]... e and reserve judgement until I was sure if he really is a monkey who can type in messages here.
You claim to be a Christian and are waiting for "evidence" of whether I am or not; well on the evidence of what you post about me I'd say that you are a slanderer and a coward - not exactly evidence of you being a Christian is it?
Originally posted by FMFThe "I didn't do it, I swear! It was her!" playground denial doesn't really work in here.
What are you on about? I've addressed posts to Grampy Bobby maybe as many as a dozen times in the last few days. It was you who tackled me when I reiterated what he'd said about my supposed "salvation".
Originally posted by divegeesterSo, let me attempt to get what you're saying. Are you actually saying that nothing matters in here because this is really just a big playground with lots of kids and game-playing and fighting and lots and lots of name-calling?
I don't think any atheist here has ever said my theology is sensible and I don't seek the approval of atheists or theists. I state fairly regularly that I am a rubbish Christian, however I will vocally stand against the dangerous lunacy of JWs and the horrendous doctrines of death propagated by some Christians here e.g. Eternal suffering. I think organi ...[text shortened]... ost of us here would happily sit round a table over a beer or a meal irl, atheist and Christian.
You do seem to hold some things sacrosanct and argue them like a barrister whenever you encounter them, but for all others' ideas and similarly seriously-held beliefs you seem to think it's okay to just stick out your arm and say "Okay! I'll arm-wrestle ya for it!" I think if you want respect you should be prepared to give respect as well as be prepared to punch someone in the face if they try to make you look like a fool. It can't really be "All punching, all the time!" if you want to be taken seriously for the things you are serious about. There has to be a balance.
Btw, I call lunacy on the JWs as well, and I'm an annihilationist as well, even though I'm not quite so ready to go to the mat over it as you are. I do not agree that organized religion is the biggest blight on mankind ever. I think it's okay to go to a mainstream church, it all depends on your faith and what you believe and if you can find a local church where you can find fellowship and a nurturing of your faith, then that makes up for a lot. I think Christians should seek out like-minded brothers for mutual support, this will become even more important as we move closer to 'end times'.
What I'm saying is that it doesn't always have to be about the fray. There can be intelligent conversation to be had if we only drop all this fist-swinging. Especially among our Christian brothers. It's hard to discuss things intelligently when you're trying to make your brother's nose more bloody than your own. I, myself, admit that my arguments have not exactly been my sparkling best lately, but this is mostly because I've just been trying to keep my head above water while all the hooligans in the pool are trying to dunk me.
I'm saying, yeah, there's time for a fray, and there is still time to relax around the table in brotherhood without popping the guy next to us in the nose. It doesn't have to be "WWE" or "UFC" all the time in here.
EDIT: I know it shouldn't matter, but I have "thumbed up" your post that this is a reply to. It struck me as your best post in a long time. It's okay to be vulnerable and to speak what you mean (and from the heart), even if only a little.
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17 Oct 14
Originally posted by SuzianneNo, that's not what I said and not what I meant. You can choose to deliberately misunderstand me if you like.
So, let me attempt to get what you're saying. Are you actually saying that nothing matters in here because this is really just a big playground with lots of kids and game-playing and fighting and lots and lots of name-calling?
Originally posted by divegeesterAlright then, since you insist on demanding an answer...
Do you think it is in line with the teachings of Christ to accuse another Christian of undermining the faith of other Christians and then lack the courage and decency to demonstrate why you have made this accusation?
You claim to be a Christian and are waiting for "evidence" of whether I am or not; well on the evidence of what you post about me I'd sa ...[text shortened]... t you are a slanderer and a coward - not exactly evidence of you being a Christian is it?
I've seen this before, where atheists are delighted to see a self professed Christian leading an attack they themselves have launched against Christians. After reading the OP and following couple of pages in the Eden thread, it was clear that you could have just easily entitled your thread "The Dirty Little Secret About Dirt".
The point of your OP was clear and easy for anyone to understand. So I can't really see you trying to dispute your own point now after you made it so abundantly clear for anyone to see. You were casting doubt about death entering the world because of sin. The point you were suggesting (you were sly enough to not come right out and say it) was that microbes in the soil must have already been growing and dying (thereby enriching the soil) before man sinned.
So the doubt being cast was how could man have allowed death to enter the world through sin if death was already here.
It's an old argument, usually posed by atheists, in order to cast doubt on death only entering the world after man had sinned. Because if microbes and insects and plants were already dying, or any other living thing designed to be food for other creatures, then death really couldn't have entered the world... because it was already here.
The point has been made recently (by an atheist) that the Bible does not go into a great deal of detail... which is true. This allows people who want to discredit what the Bible says to insert their own presumptions into the story. So for them, death entering the world means that every living thing created must have been immortal. This is nonsense, because if every living thing was created to be immortal, then the living things created to eat other livings would soon die out because, by definition, they would have to continually kill and digest other immortal living things in order to survive...
This is absolute nonsense. And because the writers of the Bible weren't trying to communicate with anyone who wants to believe absolute nonsense, they didn't go to the trouble of dumbing their message down by adding useless detail. Useless detail is only needed to pander to fools, who aren't going to believe anything they don't want to believe no matter what you say or how often you say it... so imo there is no point in pandering to fools.
But here's the sticking point for me... I don't know if you are being intentionally deceptive here, or if you have been deceived. I don't know if you attempt to insulate yourself from criticism from Christians by pretending to be one, or if you really believe you are (and are behaving as) a real Christian.
Originally posted by SuzianneHow ironic that you, of all the people who post regularly here, should be attempting to make this admonishment. There is nobody here who makes as many empty, scornful fist-swinging posts as you do.
What I'm saying is that it doesn't always have to be about the fray. There can be intelligent conversation to be had if we only drop all this fist-swinging.
17 Oct 14
Originally posted by lemon limeTo what degree was your faith undermined by divegeester's OP?
Alright then, since you insist on demanding an answer...
I've seen this before, where atheists are delighted to see a self professed Christian leading an attack they themselves have launched against Christians. After reading the OP and following couple of pages in the Eden thread, it was clear that you could have just easily entitled your thread "The D ...[text shortened]... y pretending to be one, or if you really believe you are (and are behaving as) a real Christian.
Originally posted by FMFYou didn't see me saying my faith was undermined by divegeesters' OP, so why do you persist in misrepresenting and misquoting me?
To what degree was your faith undermined by divegeester's OP?
You and divegeester aren't clever enough to undermine my faith. I think you may have done a splendid job of fooling yourselves into thinking it doesn't take much to fool the average Christian. But that mistake rests entirely on you, and so I don't feel any remorse for calling you on it.