Originally posted by Suzianne
Faith doesn't work that way. What buries many Christians is not their faith, but their neglect of that faith. Ask any Christian who's about to lose their faith "When was the last time you prayed, or even read your Bible?", and the answer is always some form of "It's been a while." Losing faith is about man turning from God, never the other way around.

Perhaps you should visit Christian web sites or message boards or start a blog, Suzianne. People with different beliefs and mind maps can be excluded from places like that, but not here. This is a debate and discussion forum on spirituality, not a Christianity Forum.

The post that was quoted here has been removed

I was wondering when this crowd might show up.

If you want to talk about the supposed "ineffectiveness" of AA, perhaps you should talk to the thousands who have beaten addiction when nothing else worked. It's well-known among medical and psychology professionals that AA does work. Despite what those who would profit from its abandonment say.

Originally posted by chaney3

I am currently sober....and trying to be honest.

That's a good starting point.

Addiction is a 'monster' i know well (professionally speaking) as the overlap with mental health is commonplace. (Not that i'm saying you have mental issues, i hasten to add). If your faith helps you with your alcoholism then good on you, but i personally do not subscribe to the notion that you are 'powerless' in the matter. You 'absolutely' need the support of the right people, but are a crucial part of the process yourself.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
That's a good starting point.

Addiction is a 'monster' i know well (professionally speaking) as the overlap with mental health is commonplace. (Not that i'm saying you have mental issues, i hasten to add). If your faith helps you with your alcoholism then good on you, but i personally do not subscribe to the notion that you are 'powerless' in the ...[text shortened]... bsolutely' need the support of the right people, but are a crucial part of the process yourself.

Regarding AA.....they absolutely tell you, through the 12 steps, and the 'Big Book', that you are powerless over alcohol......and follow it up with an outline that describes God, as the only answer. They do not tell you which God you should worship, but a God nonetheless.

However, if one does not believe in God, or has a very limited faith structure....that is, not believing that God answers prayers, or helps us upon request.....then, you are pretty much left on your own, which according to AA......is inevitable failure.

I have given some reasons why I don't currently subscribe to the fact that God will help me. If one thinks that I haven't tried praying 1,000 times, then you are wrong. I am certain that the Jews of the Holocaust prayed for help....and for whatever reason, God did not help. Maybe He helps some, but has not helped me yet. And to accuse me of not praying 'correctly' or 'enough' would be wrong as well.

The notion of being powerless is wrong in my opinion. There should be another way.

If you are reading this, and God has answered your prayers, then I am happy for you. But, in my case.....and many others, prayers to God for help have not been answered, and to couple that with the necessary faith required to have the 12 steps work for me....it has not.

The post that was quoted here has been removed

I did read part of the article you provided, and will go back to finish. But, to your point, my experience with AA, and the many friends I made in AA along the way, support the notion that many fail. At some point or another, a good number of the people I know have drank again......and the subsequent failure is only made WORSE because linked to the failure is the fact that they have failed God as well. It is not a good place to be.

The higher power issue: AA tries to be 'neutral' on the matter of a specific God.....but, that notion fails when one simply reads the 12 steps. I have recently told a friend, and will share here: One of my friends in AA, did not believe in God, but felt pressure to have a 'higher power'.....so, he chose the OCEAN as his higher power. It should be quite obvious to anyone who makes the effort to read the 12 steps, that the ocean was not going to help him......and, of course....did not.

Even if a person believes in God.....that person must ALSO believe that this God will actually come to his aid upon a prayer request to help them remain sober.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I was wondering when this crowd might show up.

If you want to talk about the supposed "ineffectiveness" of AA, perhaps you should talk to the thousands who have beaten addiction when nothing else worked. It's well-known among medical and psychology professionals that AA does work. Despite what those who would profit from its abandonment say.

Faith and anecdote... Not good foundations for establishing truth.

The evidence says that AA is at best less effective than properly conducted scientific programs.
And at worst can be counter-productive for many participants.

With tragic consequences. Particularly when forced upon people by religious political leaders.

Originally posted by chaney3
I have been honest on this forum regarding my drinking woes. Because of that, I was introduced to AA (Alcoholics Anonymous). In the beginning of AA, the founder, Bill Wilson was introduced to religious teachings, which helped him to recover. When he tried to spread his message of recovery, he realized a problem........that not all people believe in the sa ...[text shortened]... o.

I am not a troll. I am seeking answers to a question.....that frankly cannot be answered.

I have to say I am always puzzled when I see people asking questions like this.

I don't understand quite why people fell the need to start with the assumption that a god Reveal Hidden Content does exist,
and then look around baffled as to which one to choose.

I suggest take one further step back and ask the question that should come first.

Should I believe in the existence of any gods at all?

Because that question is easy to answer.

Looking at the currently available evidence there is absolutely no reason to suppose that any god or gods exist.
And all currently suggested gods are clearly man made constructs that do not actually exist.

Life gets easier when you build your world view upon firm foundations of truth, because only true facts are useful.

It IS possible to deal with an addiction, and to make a change in yourself. this has been proven time and time
again. However it's very hard to do without real help from professionals trained to deal with exactly these problems.
As has been said, you're unlikely to find such help from AA.

I hope you can get into a proper program that is based on science and not faith, and that you can overcome this problem.

The best start, would be to ask the right questions.

Which god is the right/true god is not the right question.

It's why should I believe that any gods exist at all?

Once you find the answer to that question you will have started on the road to truth.

Reveal Hidden Content

Originally posted by Suzianne
I was wondering when this crowd might show up.

If you want to talk about the supposed "ineffectiveness" of AA, perhaps you should talk to the thousands who have beaten addiction when nothing else worked. It's well-known among medical and psychology professionals that AA does work. Despite what those who would profit from its abandonment say.

I am sure you mean it works when they put their faith in the true God. 😏

Originally posted by FMF
Perhaps you should visit Christian web sites or message boards or start a blog, Suzianne. People with different beliefs and mind maps can be excluded from places like that, but not here. This is a debate and discussion forum on spirituality, not a Christianity Forum.

For someone who talks a lot about people being "coherent", you're not particularly careful of actually being coherent yourself. I'm not trying to exclude anyone, and I know this is not a Christianity forum. Neither of your declarative sentences is actually a description of anything I've said, and neither has anything to do with anything I've said. If you're just trying to make it appear I'm saying something I'm not, then I guess you've already lost the point. Come back when you're ready to discuss things I've actually said.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I'm not trying to exclude anyone, and I know this is not a Christianity forum.

You said "If you cannot help a struggling Christian in their faith, the least you could do is not stand in their way when they're trying to find their way back to it." Surely you support my right to contribute as I deem fit and you know I am not a Christian right? Because you also said "Have you helped to strengthen someone's faith when they were on the brink of losing it entirely?" which was very peculiar. It seems that sometimes you forget that I am not a Christian.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Come back when you're ready to discuss things I've actually said.

You actually said that chaney3 is a "struggling Christian". On what basis do you claim he is a Christian? He has stated unequivocally that he thinks the OT and the NT of the Bible is "BS" and "man made", he's compared the Christian God to Hitler, and more recently he has said he believes in a Creator but he doesn't think that this Creator involves Himself in human affairs. I've asked him - not just me, others too - about Jesus but he refuses to answer. On this thread he said that if people were honest, they'd say that they "...have NO clue about God". What's Christian about these beliefs of his?