Originally posted by chaney3I don't really know enough about AA to comment on their practices, but i can tell you that (as part of a multi-disciplinary team) i have worked with many clients who have successfully fought their alcoholism without God or religion being part of the process. (I avoid saying were 'cured' of their alcoholism as it is something they usually have to be mindful of for a considerable time afterwards).
However, if one does not believe in God, or has a very limited faith structure....that is, not believing that God answers prayers, or helps us upon request.....then, you are pretty much left on your own, which according to AA......is inevitable failure.
My point is however that even if you feel God hasn't or will not answer your prayers this doesn't mean you are doomed to failure. I frequently see evidence to the contrary.
17 Aug 15
Rather than start a new thread.......I will ask this question here:
Does God answer prayers upon request......all the time?
When a person in AA begins the 12 steps, the 1st step being the admission of being powerless......ONLY God can help this person. I have always had trouble with this, because it has been my lifelong belief that God may answer prayers, but.....it seems quite particular when He does. If a person does not truly believe that God will intervene, simply because this person wants to stop drinking, then the entire system collapses with possible dire consequences. And, I have begged the question for many years.........why will God answer my prayer to stop drinking, yet.....not answer the prayer of an innocent child......who may be going through a tragic problem in life?
Regarding Ghost and Duchess......when it comes to the issue of avoiding alcohol, I would much rather try something other than the reliance upon God. It is bad enough when God 'seemingly' does not answer prayer, but....it is devastating when it comes to someone in AA.
I, along with others in AA that I know, have failed in the AA program. The difference is this......when you pour your heart out to God for help, and then find yourself drinking again, then either you are a failure.....or, God did not choose to help you. Either way, I must admit personally, that each time I failed, and drank again, it only pushed me further away from God......quite the opposite effect that was intended from the start of the process.
Originally posted by chaney3The notion that people cannot give up addictions on their own and that "God" must be enlisted to help strikes me as ~ possibly ~ a bit of case of not taking full responsibility for one's behaviour and also allows one to blame "God" to some extent later ~ in the wake of failure ~ rather than scrutinize the self-discipline and motivation issues that there may be.
Rather than start a new thread.......I will ask this question here:
Does God answer prayers upon request......all the time?
When a person in AA begins the 12 steps, the 1st step being the admission of being powerless......ONLY God can help this person. I have always had trouble with this, because it has been my lifelong belief that God may answer pray ...[text shortened]... er away from God......quite the opposite effect that was intended from the start of the process.
If it helps someone to gather some psychological momentum for quitting, then good for them. But I am skeptical where someone quitting something is too reliant on the perception that there is a supernatural being's help on hand. If the strength to beat an addiction comes from within, then the new behaviour is more likely to be sustainable, I think.
I suddenly overcame a heavy addiction to cigarettes 20 or so years ago ~ in one fell swoop ~ and suffered physically and psychologically for some considerable time afterwards. I was still a committed Christian at that time and yet I did not involve my "faith" at all in my successful attempt to stop smoking cigarettes.
17 Aug 15
Originally posted by FMFGood post FMF. However, I am focusing on AA, and their 12 step program.
The notion that people cannot give up addictions on their own and that "God" must be enlisted to help strikes me as ~ possibly ~ a bit of case of not taking full responsibility for one's behaviour and also allows one to blame "God" to some extent later ~ in the wake of failure ~ rather than scrutinize the self-discipline and motivation issues that there may be. ...[text shortened]... and yet I did not involve my "faith" at all in my successful attempt to stop smoking cigarettes.
I would much rather have been introduced to a scientific approach years back, instead of AA, because AA teaches that a human cannot do anything regarding addiction, without the help of God.
These are not my words, all one needs to do is google, and read the 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous.
17 Aug 15
Originally posted by chaney3Well you seem to be blaming "God", to a degree anyway, for your failure ~ for not answering your prayers. Perhaps the religious dynamic is not condusive to the necessary frame of mind ~ i.e. taking responsibility and drawing on inner strength ~ to liberate yourself from your addiction. You should certainly not dwell too long on how you feel AA let you down. Clearly, for you, the "faith" aspect was a dud.
Good post FMF. However, I am focusing on AA, and their 12 step program.
17 Aug 15
Originally posted by chaney3If it's true that the AA program was based on a premise as patently and self-evidently untrue as this, why did you take it seriously in the first place?
AA teaches that a human cannot do anything regarding addiction, without the help of God.
17 Aug 15
Originally posted by FMFFMF, I would challenge you to read the 12 steps of AA, and maybe......read a little bit more into it. When a 'group' tells you that humans can do nothing without God, what can we do....at THAT time, but listen?
Well you seem to be blaming "God", to a degree anyway, for your failure ~ for not answering your prayers. Perhaps the religious dynamic is not condusive to the necessary frame of mind ~ i.e. taking responsibility and drawing on inner strength ~ to liberate yourself from your addiction. You should certainly not dwell too long on how you feel AA let you down. Clearly, for you, the "faith" aspect was a dud.
I was FORCED into AA, after a DWI conviction. I would most certainly NOT have gone there on my own. Duchess has wisely pointed out the fact that most legal systems don't truly know what to do with alcoholics, and somewhat blindly send them directly to AA.
Here is the dilemma: I have read the entire 'Big Book' (the AA bible), and only one true fact comes from this. That, in my case, and many others, AA at the VERY least, brings a person to the thought of God, which we may have been ignoring and evading for many years.
17 Aug 15
Originally posted by chaney3Well then it's not clear why you are dwelling on it in this way now. If it's part of some procrastination on your part, then you need to recognize this and set it aside.
I was FORCED into AA, after a DWI conviction. I would most certainly NOT have gone there on my own.
17 Aug 15
Originally posted by FMFBecause it relates to what a person believes that God will do for them, upon request.
Well then it's not clear why you are dwelling on it in this way now. If it's part of some procrastination on your part, then you need to recognize this and set it aside.
Does God answer prayer? Will God reach out to an alcoholic, and help them recover, while ignoring a child's prayer? Why will God help an alcoholic in AA, and allow a pastor to be murdered in his own church?
Valid questions FMF.
17 Aug 15
Originally posted by chaney3I'd say that there is no evidence that "God answers prayers". I've been on this forum for many years and the topic arises from time to time and those here that believe that "God answers prayers" have never been able to offer any convincing examples of it happening.
Does God answer prayer? Will God reach out to an alcoholic, and help them recover, while ignoring a child's prayer? Why will God help an alcoholic in AA, and allow a pastor to be murdered in his own church?
17 Aug 15
Originally posted by chaney3Actually, they are not the only two possibilities. Another one is that 'pouring your heart out to a God figure' was the incorrect methodology for you, especially when on this forum you have demonstrated that your concept of God is literally inexplicable. Secondly, declaring that your God figure did not help you sounds like shifting the blame. You need, I think, to take more personal responsibility, and stop blaming a 'third party'. I have known several people with no religious convictions overcome addictions.
...when you pour your heart out to God for help, and then find yourself drinking again, then either you are a failure.....or, God did not choose to help you. Either way, I must admit personally, that each time I failed, and drank again...
17 Aug 15
Originally posted by FMFIt would be an interesting thread on its own.
I'd say that there is no evidence that "God answers prayers". I've been on this forum for many years and the topic arises from time to time and those here that believe that "God answers prayers" have never been able to offer any convincing examples of it happening.
I am not convinced that God answers prayer. I watched a documentary recently about the Holocaust, and watched how innocent people were led, naked, into the gas chambers. Surely, they deserved God's help, and did NOT receive it, by the millions.
I do believe that God may answer 'some' prayer, but....it is random at best.
It would be an interesting thread......maybe you will take the lead on this?
17 Aug 15
Originally posted by FMFOnce again FMF, you are avoiding the AA issue. These are NOT chaney3 thoughts here, they are from AA.
Actually, they are not the only two possibilities. Another one is that 'pouring your heart out to a God figure' was the incorrect methodology for you, especially when on this forum you have demonstrated that your concept of God is literally inexplicable. Secondly, declaring that your God figure did not help you sounds like shifting the blame. You need, I think, ...[text shortened]... a 'third party'. I have known several people with no religious convictions overcome addictions.
Tell me that you have made the effort to read the 12 steps?????
17 Aug 15
Originally posted by chaney3The AA approach was obviously a failure for you. I hope for your sake, that your dwelling upon it is not merely procrastination and that you are going to move on to some new effort to overcome your addiction. If AA has helped some people to do so, then one can hardly do anything but welcome the positive effect it had on the lives of those in question. To me personally, the psychology of it (people can't achieve anything on their own and you have to have a god that you rely on) seems utterly shonky to me. If I were you, I'd look forward and not back.
Once again FMF, you are avoiding the AA issue. These are NOT chaney3 thoughts here, they are from AA.