The Myth: Once saved always saved!

Originally posted by divegeester
1 John 2:2 New International Version
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the[b] whole world.

Mark 8:34 (KJV) "Whosoever will, come after me..."

"And whosoever will, let him take of the water of life freely." (Revelation 22:17)[/b]

I'm not disagreeing with the forgiveness of sins. Never said that. Forgiveness of sins is different then being given salvation which according to the bible is to be given everlasting life or immortality because no sin will ever happen from that being again. Jesus never sinned and as a result was given immortality once he returned to heaven, not while he was here on earth.
The bible never says that immortality will be given to all humans. Humans will become perfect physically again in the future after armegeddon, but we like Adam could still sin, unlike the ones in heaven who will be finally given salvation once they are raised from death here on earth, to heaven.

Until you ever see the differances between the 2 flocks that Jesus spoke of many times and understand who they are and where they exist, you will always be confused on this issue of salvation.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I already told you what you think, and then asked you for your opinion. Its you thats being silly. Go back and read through the thread. Your avoidance tactics are ridiculous.

I ignore your slightly amusing Freudian slip.

Actually you told me what you 'thought most Christians believed' not you you actually thought about the thread premise.

Originally posted by galveston75
I'm not disagreeing with the forgiveness of sins. Never said that. Forgiveness of sins is different then being given salvation which according to the bible is to be given everlasting life or immortality because no sin will ever happen from that being again. Jesus never sinned and as a result was given immortality once he returned to heaven, not while he ...[text shortened]... stand who they are and where they exist, you will always be confused on this issue of salvation.

I have no idea what you are talking about Galveston, which is fine because you clearly have no idea what I'm talking about.

Originally posted by divegeester
I ignore your slightly amusing Freudian slip.

Actually you told me what you 'thought most Christians believed' not you you actually thought about the thread premise.

I didn't ask you about the thread premise, I asked you about what you said and its implications.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I didn't ask you about the thread premise, I asked you about what you said and its implications.

I'm waiting for you to tell me what you think twhitehead, not what you think Christians think, or what you think my mind reading abilities think you think. Stop wriggling it's becoming way too amusing. 😵

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Ephesians 1:13,14.. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Continue reading Ephesians and you will see the long list of things those who are Gods possession have to do. The lifestyle the good works the righteousness. Paul was fully aware that there would be people who think they can habitually sin and still remain Gods children :

For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
(Ephesians 5:5-6 KJV)

No inheritance in the Kingdom of God for those who disobey.

Originally posted by divegeester
I have no idea what you are talking about Galveston, which is fine because you clearly have no idea what I'm talking about.

That doesn't suprise me at all.......

Originally posted by galveston75
That doesn't suprise me at all.......

Which bit?

Originally posted by divegeester
I'm waiting for you to tell me what you think twhitehead, not what you think Christians think, or what you think my mind reading abilities think you think. Stop wriggling it's becoming way too amusing. 😵

What I think about the OP?
I think the Bible holds two contradictory messages: one, highlighted in the parable of the sheep and the goats where it is clear that those favoured by God are those that care about those less fortunate than themselves, and the other favoured by Paul which sees man as sinful and in need of a scapegoat in which case believing in Jesus is required.

Now, your turn.

Originally posted by twhitehead
What I think about the OP?
I think the Bible holds two contradictory messages: one, highlighted in the parable of the sheep and the goats where it is clear that those favoured by God are those that care about those less fortunate than themselves, and the other favoured by Paul which sees man as sinful and in need of a scapegoat in which case believing in Jesus is required.

Now, your turn.

Within the context of this thread which is about the dynamic of permanent vs semi permanent salvation, you are using the parable to claim justification (and therefore salvation) by works? Or are you just saying you don't believe the bible, especially the NT Pauline sections and therefore the gospel of Jesus Christ?

I believe in permanent salvation as I've clear stated in this thread and on this forum on many occasions. I do however believe that those who are the metaphorical sheep as referred to by Christ are also "saved" through faith.

Originally posted by divegeester
Within the context of this thread which is about the dynamic of permanent vs semi permanent salvation, you are using the parable to claim justification (and therefore salvation) by works? Or are you just saying you don't believe the bible, especially the NT Pauline sections and therefore the gospel of Jesus Christ?

I thought you knew I am not a theist, so belief doesn't come into it.
What I am saying is that the New Testament is inconsistent about what is required to get to heaven and Pauls theology seems to differ substantially from that of the gospel writers.

I believe in permanent salvation as I've clear stated in this thread and on this forum on many occasions. I do however believe that those who are the metaphorical sheep as referred to by Christ are also "saved" through faith.
What I want to know is how your statement that we can do nothing to gain salvation plays out. It seems to contradict your claim that the sheep can gain salvation through faith. You also don't say how the goats getting salvation fits with your claim.

Originally posted by Pudgenik
To believe in this concept, is ridiculous. It would be like saying, "today" I believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior. And tomorrow I can do whatever I want, because I am "saved". Doing whatever I want, to commit all manner of sin, but look I am a child of God.

Has know one ever read, where Jesus is talking about those at judgement. You faithful co ...[text shortened]... e, we healed people in your name." Then the Lord said to them, "Away from me, I never knew you".

When your definitions come in line with the intention of the Scriptures involved, the apparent absurdities will dissipate, leaving only the galvanizing truth.

I don't believe in Santa Claus.
I used to, but I don't anymore.
I get presents at Christmas time.
I used to, and I still do.
Despite being led to believe that my receipt of gifts at Christmas time was tied to two actionsReveal Hidden Contentit was eventually revealed that neither of the insinuations were in any way, shape or form related to receiving gifts.
In short, the gifts weren't produced in the manner assumed to be true.

Not to assume there is a direct correlation with the previously held misconception and the one you are currently suffering from, but it is safe to at least assume that such a thing could be occurring here.

With the Santa Claus misconception, beliefReveal Hidden Content+actionReveal Hidden Content=gainReveal Hidden Content.

With the salvation issue, beliefReveal Hidden Content=gainReveal Hidden Content.

Not only are the formulas fundamentally different, the parts of the formula are entirely different, too. The first one uses a completely different definition of belief than does the second one, in addition to adding a part which the second one does not contain. That being said, the formulas do have some similarity. Namely, both contain a gain, an action and a belief. The former requires two beliefs: one that the benefactor exists; and two, confidence in one's ability to produce the required level of satisfactory behavior in order to obtain the gain(s). Similarly, the latter requires two beliefs: one that the benefactor is able to produce the desired outcome without any other assistance; and two, said confidence is the only requirement.

The formulas also contain an action, but they differ in application. The former calls upon the believer to produce the necessary action to produce the gain. The latter is rendered moot when the believer attempts to add any action to the production of the gain: all "good work" is provided by the benefactor.

They both also contain cautionary tales. The former carries the threat of no gain if unacceptable work is produced--- regardless of belief. The latter brings a warning, as well: without the exchange of confidence, i.e., the believer eschews his personal work for the work of the benefactor, no gain will be realized. Because the former's gain is based upon both the belief and the work of the believer, there is also threat of loss even after gain: if the believer's good work could trigger gain, it follows how the believer's poor work could also trigger loss of the same.

However, the latter does not rely on the believer beyond the exchange: the believer cannot produce the necessary work for the gain, therefore, neither can the believer either un-produce or in any other form, act in such a way as to nullify the gain.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I thought you knew I am not a theist, so belief doesn't come into it.
What I am saying is that the New Testament is inconsistent about what is required to get to heaven and Pauls theology seems to differ substantially from that of the gospel writers.

[b]I believe in permanent salvation as I've clear stated in this thread and on this forum on many occa ...[text shortened]... alvation through faith. You also don't say how the goats getting salvation fits with your claim.

It plays out by faith not works, not sure why that is confusing for you. Same with the sheep and goats, the sheep had faith the goats didn't.

Originally posted by divegeester
It plays out by faith not works, not sure why that is confusing for you. Same with the sheep and goats, the sheep had faith the goats didn't.

So why was that so hard to say? Why did it take three pages of posts to drag that out of you kicking and screaming?
So when you said "there is nothing you can do to achieve salvation" what you meant was "there are no good works you can do to achieve salvation, but having faith will allow you to achieve salvation".
Thats all I wanted cleared up, because the way you phrased it initially implies that God must pick people to save arbitrarily, or via some criteria that they have no control over (that second option is one I did not think of in my first response).

So, in your opinion, is having faith equivalent to believing that God exists, or is it more than that? eg trusting that Jesus will do something for you.
If it is belief, how does one come to believe? Life experience, logical deduction, choice?
And what happens to those that do not have faith?

Originally posted by twhitehead
So why was that so hard to say? Why did it take three pages of posts to drag that out of you kicking and screaming?
So when you said "there is nothing you can do to achieve salvation" what you meant was "there are no good works you can do to achieve salvation, but having faith will allow you to achieve salvation".
Thats all I wanted cleared up, because ...[text shortened]... ? Life experience, logical deduction, choice?
And what happens to those that do not have faith?

his assertions are inaccurate, the sheep and goats are judged on the basis of whether they demonstrate hospitality to Christs brothers, but then again, accuracy of belief for nominal Christians is not really a priority.