Originally posted by SwissGambit Not this debate again. Expect 300 more posts of distinction-without-a-difference. Why? Because the OSAS crowd will always say 'a Christian who acts too evilly was never really saved in the first place', rendering the whole discussion moot.
So what if there are 500 posts. It is a good topic, and important.
Originally posted by Pudgenik Judas. He was saved.
It is written, 'Jesus sent them out two by two'. When Jesus did this, He sent them to heal, cast out demons, anything that needed to be done.
Jesus Himself stated, 'a house set against itself can not stand'.
These two statements will prove that Judas was indeed saved. But he threw that salvation away and betrayed Jesus.
I'm sorry but this does not prove that judas was not saved, you are making a big assumption based on drawing inferences from what happened to the man.
For example "then satan entered him". Certainly judas was not filled with the spirit as the disciples were after Pentecost, but then Pentecost had not come had it. There is a difference between being saved in eternity and experiencing the spirit filled life of abundance of the NT, remember just because the gospels are in the "NT" does not mean that those people in the written accounts were living in the new covenant; the atonement had not occurred and were technically still under the law.
In a way we could deduce that judas was never "saved" not under the new covenant, he was under law and broke it and was punished. However this does not mean that his name was then excluded from the book of life. Maybe it was, but there is no direct evidence to say it was the case.
Originally posted by twhitehead But the whole concept of being saved is about being saved despite your sins -essentially you are saved not because you are good, but because you have found a loophole.
So whats your version? Can you never be saved until after you die, or once you are saved can you be unsaved, or once you are saved are you incapable of sin.
PS. I am not a theist, I just like poking holes in the ridiculous logic you theists come up with.
My version. We toss around words like saved as meaning entering heaven. That is like comparing apples and oranges.
Being saved or having faith is the beginning of our journey with Jesus. It is the opening of your heart to the Father. Now you have to fan into a flame your love for the Father. The deeper your love of the Father is, the greater the fire in your heart will be. Have you never read, where your heart is, so there will your treasure be.
Originally posted by divegeester I'm sorry but this does not prove that judas was not saved, you are making a big assumption based on drawing inferences from what happened to the man.
For example "then satan entered him". Certainly judas was not filled with the spirit as the disciples were after Pentecost, but then Pentecost had not come had it. There is a difference between being ...[text shortened]... ded from the book of life. Maybe it was, but there is no direct evidence to say it was the case.
I'm not talking about Pentecost. When Jesus was alive, He sent the disciples out two by two. It is written in the scripture the names of all who went, and his name is listed.
Also as i stated what Jesus said. A house divided against itself. The priests were attacking Jesus because He was casting out demons. You see Judas could not cast out demons, nor do any sort of healings etc. if Christ were not with him. That is at the time they were sent out.
It was later we read that Judas changed, "then satan entered him"
Originally posted by galveston75 I'm not disagreeing with the forgiveness of sins. Never said that. Forgiveness of sins is different then being given salvation which according to the bible is to be given everlasting life or immortality because no sin will ever happen from that being again. Jesus never sinned and as a result was given immortality once he returned to heaven, not while he ...[text shortened]... stand who they are and where they exist, you will always be confused on this issue of salvation.
I believe it was in one of the books of Peter where he states, the rock that was in the desert (at the time of Moses, the one which water came from) was Jesus.
Also it is written, In the beginning was the word, the word was with God and the word was God. Later in the scripture, Jesus states "I am the Word.". So if Jesus is the word of God, what part of God is not God?
Originally posted by Pudgenik I'm not talking about Pentecost. When Jesus was alive, He sent the disciples out two by two. It is written in the scripture the names of all who went, and his name is listed.
Also as i stated what Jesus said. A house divided against itself. The priests were attacking Jesus because He was casting out demons. You see Judas could not cast out demons, nor d ...[text shortened]... he time they were sent out.
It was later we read that Judas changed, "then satan entered him"
"Judas changed"
This is the nub of the matter, how did he change, what did he do? How did he lose his "salvation"? How is he different to David and Moses who were murderers and adulterers? Are they not in heaven. Did you read my post about them earlier in the thread?
Originally posted by FreakyKBH When your definitions come in line with the intention of the Scriptures involved, the apparent absurdities will dissipate, leaving only the galvanizing truth.
I don't believe in Santa Claus.
I used to, but I don't anymore.
I get presents at Christmas time.
I used to, and I still do.
Despite being led to believe that my receipt of gifts at Christmas ...[text shortened]... n the believer either un-produce or in any other form, act in such a way as to nullify the gain.
So what is your bottom line, what are You trying to say?
This is the nub of the matter, how did he change, what did he do? How did he lose his "salvation"? How is he different to David and Moses who were murderers and adulterers? Are they not in heaven. Did you read my post about them earlier in the thread?
Free Will is the culprit if you are looking for something to blame.
With David, the answer is easy. He repented.
With Moses, a little more complex. If i recall Moses murdered the man before standing at the mountain of God. Before he received the 10 commandments. (thou shall not kill). I'm certainly not condoning his actions.
With Judas, he did not repent, but hung himself.
Originally posted by divegeester I'm sorry but this does not prove that judas was not saved, you are making a big assumption based on drawing inferences from what happened to the man.
For example "then satan entered him". Certainly judas was not filled with the spirit as the disciples were after Pentecost, but then Pentecost had not come had it. There is a difference between being ...[text shortened]... ded from the book of life. Maybe it was, but there is no direct evidence to say it was the case.
Of Judas's fate, it is written, "it would have been better if he had not been born"
Originally posted by Pudgenik The Gift is avalible to everyone.
And this will burn about everyone out there. The Gift is avalible to the non believers as well. 🙂
Romans chapter 2 says that but many Christians would not believe in it. I guess many want to think that their own 'club' is the only correct and acceptable one.
Originally posted by Pudgenik Free Will is the culprit if you are looking for something to blame.
With David, the answer is easy. He repented.
With Moses, a little more complex. If i recall Moses murdered the man before standing at the mountain of God. Before he received the 10 commandments. (thou shall not kill). I'm certainly not condoning his actions.
With Judas, he did not repent, but hung himself.
What makes you think I'm looking for something to blame? I'm the one claiming OSAS, you are the one claiming that there is something post Calvary that can separate us from Christ, despite scriptures to the contrary.
30 Oct '13 07:28
The Myth: Once saved always saved!
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