Originally posted by sonhouseI don't know why He did what He did or does what He what He does.
Tell me why a god, being omniscient, would set up a system where it knew at the inception of the universe there would be billions of people headed to hell.
The answer would follow then that it wanted it that way, designed it that way.
But Christians only think of their god as loving and just.
Bit of a dichotomy there, don't you think?
Originally posted by KellyJaySo you think a Chinese christian is more likely to achieve salvation than, say, an Angolan christian?
I can tell you i've gone to many prayer and Bible study meetings that were represented by people from several different nations and walks of life. I believe that there are much fewer people from western nations saved than many think, and far more from other countries than people give credit to.
Originally posted by avalanchethecatI think God who formed each of us in our mothers womb, who holds the universe together by the power of His Word, who gave each of us every thing we have knowns us well enough to get His points across regardless of where we come from. God who knows us, gives what amounts to His full attention to each of us at the same time.
So you think a Chinese christian is more likely to achieve salvation than, say, an Angolan christian?
Originally posted by KellyJayThat's kind of avoiding the issue. I understand why though - this version of christianity you ascribe to is an affront to reason.
I think God who formed each of us in our mothers womb, who holds the universe together by the power of His Word, who gave each of us every thing we have knowns us well enough to get His points across regardless of where we come from. God who knows us, gives what amounts to His full attention to each of us at the same time.
Originally posted by KellyJayMaybe I misunderstand. So please answer. What about people who lived before jesus was born; or people who never heard about jesus (babies, which die a lot!); or people who respect the idea of jesus but have never met him, or anyone else who lives a spiritual and moral life but frankly haven't met
I'm saying everyone is on the way to Hell without exception, except those that come to
God through Jesus Christ. ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_deities
Your view of Christianity seems extremely offensive.
Originally posted by KellyJay... God is not withholding His salvation from any that comes to Him for it, that is why Jesus came to save the lost.I try to imagine from your god's point of view. I created you, am unhappy with you now, but will forgive you if you first torture my son to death and then worship and obey me.
Nothing unhealthy about that!
Originally posted by JS357That was my rough understanding. I haven't read all 18 pages, the first few seemed to consist of nothing but FMF being upset at being condemned to eternal hellfire.
The OP asks that we assume that the Bible is (hypothetically) essentially correct about God, and then asks for a reason for this God to knowingly create people who will not be saved. Many of the responses to these requests fail to accept the hypothetical or its implications: an omnipotent, omnibenicient, all-knowing creator. An implication is that God HAS a go ...[text shortened]... perfect God-given nature, and there has to be a good reason for that, too.
Do I get it right?
The OP talked about predestination, if Dr Evil was created and predestined to be evil, then moral responsibility seems to lie with his creator, rather than Dr Evil himself.
As has been discussed in previous threads, omniscience and predestination are not quite the same thing. If there is an omniscient God then "he" knows Dr Evil will do evil things from the beginning of time. However that does not entail that God's knowledge causes Dr Evil to live up to his name. The direction of causation is from our choices to God's knowledge and not the other way round.
So I wonder if the question is whether omniscience entails predestination. As I said, not at the level of logical necessity, however it is difficult to envisage a coherent system where humans have free will (in the absolute sense) and God is omniscient before the fact.
Originally posted by DeepThoughtDon't be silly. I am not upset by being condemned to "hellfire". I find the very notion to be sheer nonsense. My point was this: a creator allowing some of the created to die off for not making the grade is one thing, while a creator creating people quite deliberately in order to torture many them for disappointing him, are two completely different actions for which to seek a possible purpose - motivation - moral justification. The premise for the OP's thought exercise is woefully inadequate.
That was my rough understanding. I haven't read all 18 pages, the first few seemed to consist of nothing but FMF being upset at being condemned to eternal hellfire.
3 edits
Originally posted by avalanchethecatWhen man joined the rebellion against God mankind has been at odds with God since
That's kind of avoiding the issue. I understand why though - this version of christianity you ascribe to is an affront to reason.
then. Following the nature of the flesh we see we move towards sin very easily. Our race
is not only at odds with God we are in a state where we are hostile towards God. The fact
we were sinners, that we turn on God and each other so readily, and God still worked out
a way to save as many as possible speaks a great deal about God's mercy and grace not
so much about our being good enough.
Why is it all being worked out the way it is, I can only guess, maybe there is something
about us when we are lead by God's Spirit, where love is our default position that comes
naturally. More than likely it cannot be produced by force, the trouble with our race is that
not many of us want to or can walk out our lives in love, instead we justify ourselves and
bad mouth others attempting to make others feel they are some how less than for some
reason and ourselves better than.
Matthew 26:41
“Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”
Romans 7:5
For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death.
Romans 8:6-7
The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Originally posted by FMFWell, it was how it read. The interesting question revolves around whether omniscience entails predestination at some sort of nomological level, or if free will, at least the sort of incompatibilist type Christianity seems to require, entails that God's omniscience is only after-the-fact. Since the main purpose of omniscience seems connected with final judgement I don't see any great problem.
Don't be silly. I am not upset by being condemned to "hellfire". I find the very notion to be sheer nonsense. My point was this: a creator allowing some of the created to die off for not making the grade is one thing, while a creator creating people quite deliberately in order to torture many them for disappointing him, are two completely different actions for ...[text shortened]... ivation - moral justification. The premise for the OP's thought exercise is woefully inadequate.
Originally posted by DeepThoughtI read the OP as being more about the supposed purpose behind the god figure's actions and therefore the details of what it is exactly that the god figure is actually said to be doing are all important.
Well, it was how it read. The interesting question revolves around whether omniscience entails predestination at some sort of nomological level, or if free will, at least the sort of incompatibilist type Christianity seems to require, entails that God's omniscience is only after-the-fact. Since the main purpose of omniscience seems connected with final judgement I don't see any great problem.