1. SubscriberTom Wolsey
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    06 May '17 00:291 edit
    This one gets me thinking. For the sake of argument, let's say the bible is absolutely correct, at least on the significant things related to doctrine.

    God is omniscient, and knows everything that has or will come to pass. This means that in the case of the skeptic that dies in a state of unbelief and unrepentance -- God pre-ordained his or her life from beginning to bitter, tragic end.

    So does the life of such a person (from a biblical, believer's view) have real meaning? This soul is going to be carted off to the elevator and taken down to the smoking section. For what purpose?

    Should God in all fairness have never created this person, or, can we say, since that person tasted life, maybe it was worth it. Sort of a "better to have loved and lost, than to have never loved at all." (replace loved with lived)

    Thoughts?
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    06 May '17 00:341 edit
    Originally posted by Tom Wolsey
    This one gets me thinking. For the sake of argument, let's say the bible is absolutely correct, at least on the significant things related to doctrine.

    God is omniscient, and knows everything that has or will come to pass. This means that in the case of the skeptic that dies in a state of unbelief and unrepentance -- God pre-ordained his or her life ...[text shortened]... have loved and lost, than to have never loved at all." (replace loved with lived)

    Thoughts?
    Are you addressing this to believers in eternal suffering?

    I ask because I'm unclear on the motivation of your use of "carted off to the smoking section".
  3. SubscriberTom Wolsey
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    06 May '17 00:44
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Are you addressing this to believers in eternal suffering?

    I ask because I'm unclear on the motivation of your use of "carted off to the smoking section".
    No motivation. No agenda. Truly wanting to share insights as to what the purpose is. One of the reasons many reject the idea that God pre-ordains hell as a destination for someone is because it seems so cruel. So, they dress up the dilemma with a more comfortable scenario. "It was that person's choice." They literally claim that people choose hell. That might seem more warm and fuzzy but if the bible I'm reading is correct, God knew that person's destination before they were even conceived. Obviously, God could have just said, nah, I won't create that person. Be He did anyway so the question I often ponder is, why?
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    06 May '17 00:471 edit
    Originally posted by Tom Wolsey
    ... so the question I often ponder is, why?
    If you don't believe they are going to hell and eternal punishment, then why on earth are you concerned about it? Why are you asking yourself, "why"?
  5. SubscriberFMF
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    06 May '17 00:481 edit
    Originally posted by Tom Wolsey
    No motivation. No agenda. ...
    What does "smoking section" mean? You said "I am not arguing for eternal torment. I lean in favor of annihilation...", so what does "smoking section" refer to.
  6. SubscriberTom Wolsey
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    06 May '17 01:00
    Originally posted by divegeester
    If you don't believe they are going to hell and eternal punishment, then why on earth are you concerned about it? Why are you asking yourself, "why"?
    Going to hell and suffering punishment eternally are 2 completely separate things. You do realize that, don't you?
  7. SubscriberTom Wolsey
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    06 May '17 01:01
    Originally posted by FMF
    What does "smoking section" mean? You said "I am not arguing for eternal torment. I lean in favor of annihilation...", so what does "smoking section" refer to.
    Ok so that's 2 people that don't understand that hell can exist, punishment can happen, and eternal punishment doesn't have to be part of it.
  8. SubscriberTom Wolsey
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    06 May '17 01:03
    All the sudden within a couple of messages, I'm being challenged on eternal torment. Ok fine, remove that from the equation if that makes it easier. Change it to annihilation of the soul. Either way, the point I'm wanting to discuss is what role, if any, the person plays when from conception, their destination of [annihilation, hell, whatever] was already pre-determined?
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    06 May '17 01:05
    Originally posted by Tom Wolsey
    Going to hell and suffering punishment eternally are 2 completely separate things. You do realize that, don't you?
    Of course I do.

    What do you mean by "carted off to the smoking section"?

    Thanks for clarifying.
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    06 May '17 01:07
    Originally posted by Tom Wolsey
    All the sudden within a couple of messages, I'm being challenged on eternal torment.
    To be frank you are not putting your ideas across particularly clearly and this is why you are getting questions, most of which you are not directly answering.
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    06 May '17 01:08
    Originally posted by Tom Wolsey
    All the sudden within a couple of messages, I'm being challenged on eternal torment. Ok fine, remove that from the equation if that makes it easier. Change it to annihilation of the soul. Either way, the point I'm wanting to discuss is what role, if any, the person plays when from conception, their destination of [annihilation, hell, whatever] was already pre-determined?
    Are you talking about the "free will vs predestination" debate?
  12. Standard memberKellyJay
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    06 May '17 01:18
    Originally posted by Tom Wolsey
    This one gets me thinking. For the sake of argument, let's say the bible is absolutely correct, at least on the significant things related to doctrine.

    God is omniscient, and knows everything that has or will come to pass. This means that in the case of the skeptic that dies in a state of unbelief and unrepentance -- God pre-ordained his or her life ...[text shortened]... have loved and lost, than to have never loved at all." (replace loved with lived)

    Thoughts?
    I believe God is the only one who can create a people with the freedom to choose, and
    has given us a wide birth to do just that. In this life when judgment day comes, those that
    have lived a life in the flesh have been hostile towards God and have never pleased Him.
    Those that repent and turn to God receiving His Spirit and walk out their lives with Him
    will do so in a world hostile towards them, but over coming it with Christ they will receive
    God. God who by the way is our great reward. It will be shown in my opinion that
    everyone of us will have no excuse, and when excuses are made, there will be those that
    call BS, as they saw less and were able to see the truth.
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    06 May '17 01:221 edit
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    I believe God is the only one who can create a people with the freedom to choose, and
    has given us a wide birth to do just that. In this life when judgment day comes, those that
    have lived a life in the flesh have been hostile towards God and have never pleased Him.
    Those that repent and turn to God receiving His Spirit and walk out their lives with Him ...[text shortened]... es are made, there will be those that
    call BS, as they saw less and were able to see the truth.
    ^^ Looks like it's now 3 people how don't understand your post Tom Wolsey.
  14. SubscriberFMF
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    06 May '17 01:33
    Originally posted by Tom Wolsey
    All the sudden within a couple of messages, I'm being challenged on eternal torment.
    You mentioned the "smoking section". Is that "eternal torment"?
  15. Standard memberapathist
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    06 May '17 01:381 edit
    gods don't like that, and can't stop it. Weak little pussies.
    ...bugger it.
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