Originally posted by 667joeThanks for showing zero willingness to understand Christians (I understand that you're too busy slamming us to actually attempt understanding instead of just more of the usual), and totally, completely and conveniently missing the point in your rush to judge us.
Are you glad Jesus was crucified,(if so, are you a sadist?), or do you think the crucifixion of Jesus should have been avoided? Couldn't Jesus forgive your sins without being crucified? In other words, was the crucifixion truly necessary?
Originally posted by 667joeThere is no necessity or requirement for Christians or anyone else to understand why a sacrifice was necessary. That is between God and his chosen sacrificial lamb. The 12 disciples had no clue about the sacrifice of Christ, and neither did Jesus explain it to them. Paul made an effort to explain it but again it is irrelevant to anyone eternal life.
Are you glad Jesus was crucified,(if so, are you a sadist?), or do you think the crucifixion of Jesus should have been avoided? Couldn't Jesus forgive your sins without being crucified? In other words, was the crucifixion truly necessary?
Originally posted by 667joeConsider this narrative.
Couldn't Jesus forgive your sins without being crucified? In other words, was the crucifixion truly necessary?
Charismatic maverick rabbi attracts followers with his modernizer-style critique of Judaism.
He causes quite a stir and teaches actually pretty straightforward things that appeal to our humanity and therefore resonate (and still do to this day).
He is prosecuted for sedition/blasphemy at the behest of Jews whose noses he has put out of joint
The Romans execute him. This probably avoids some degree of civil unrest in that troublesome province.
He is dead and buried.
His followers are distraught with the brutal finality of it all.
All kinds of hysterical and bitterly disappointed reactions and theories start circulating.
In the decades after his death a cult of personality rises around the memory of him and around competing theories about who he was.
A prominent theory is that he was God incarnate, although not all early 'Christianities' believed this to be so.
Stories about how he resurrected himself from the dead gather momentum.
Decades later, someone writes about the empty tomb and someone writes about there being hundreds of eyewitnesses that saw him come back from the dead.
These stories are very popular, spellbinding even - at least to some.
This 'resurrection' story burnishes the "he was God incarnate" theory.
But, hang on. If he was God, why did he allow himself to be executed?
Why would "God" just die like that, even if he did rise from the dead?
What was that all about?
So what was needed: a convoluted concept that did not need to actually be coherent, in fact, the more obtuse the better maybe ~ people can either revel in its breathtaking, doesn't-bear-scrutiny, ideological word salad and the holier-than-thou kudos subscribing to it afforded them in the yes of fellow believers...
...or be threatened with stupendously cruel and nonsensically demented treatment after they die for their 'failure' to believe it.
And what do you know? A new book called 'Revelation' appears, based on somebody or other's dream, no less... and it dishes up the threat of stupendously cruel and nonsensically demented treatment after non-believers die in exquisitely opaque and sacred sounding prose.
Hence: convoluted theology in place: Jesus had to die like that in order to forgive humanity's "sins".
"What, are you crazy? How on earth could Jesus have forgiven your sins without being crucified? What's the matter with you? You must be part of Satan's rebellion!"
In the centuries of early Christianity, this ideology gained traction, and dissenting sects and groups were sidelined, wiped out, or just lost the "argument" in the face of corporate Christianity's corporate juggernaut.
Originally posted by Suzianne to 667joeWhy don't you take this opportunity to help 667joe to understand why you believe Jesus could not forgive your "sins" without being crucified?
Thanks for showing zero willingness to understand Christians (I understand that you're too busy slamming us to actually attempt understanding instead of just more of the usual), and totally, completely and conveniently missing the point in your rush to judge us.
Originally posted by FMFWhatever helps you sleep at night, I guess.
Consider this narrative.
Charismatic maverick rabbi attracts followers with his modernizer-style critique of Judaism.
He causes quite a stir and teaches actually pretty straightforward things that appeal to our humanity and therefore resonate (and still do to this day).
He is prosecuted for sedition/blasphemy at the behest of Jews whose noses he has put ...[text shortened]... d out, or just lost the "argument" in the face of corporate Christianity's corporate juggernaut.
"The Bible According to FMF".
Not exactly.
Originally posted by FMFFor reasons that only God knows, it appears that someone needed to 'pay the price' for sin, and Jesus was that someone. A bit of justice, along with forgiveness?
Do you believe that Jesus did not have the power to forgive your sins without being crucified?
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Originally posted by chaney3So your answer, for all intents and purposes, to one of the central conceits of Christian theology, is 'no one knows' why?
For reasons that only God knows, it appears that someone needed to 'pay the price' for sin, and Jesus was that someone. A bit of justice, along with forgiveness?
Originally posted by 667joeWe are told in scripture God through Christ reconciled us to God, there is no doubt that
Are you glad Jesus was crucified,(if so, are you a sadist?), or do you think the crucifixion of Jesus should have been avoided? Couldn't Jesus forgive your sins without being crucified? In other words, was the crucifixion truly necessary?
what was given for our unrighteousness was acceptable to God, the sinless became sin
for us so we could be forgiven. Let me ask you this question, seeing such a high price
was paid for you by Jesus Christ do you think He deserves our lives, our very best, or
are you of the opinion you could care less? Granted there are some here who think
nothing of Jesus, and walked away from Him, treating Him with contempt, what say you?
2 Corinthians 6: ESV
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.