07 Sep 19
@kellyjay saidYes, it is what it is. If either the apple or God exist nothing we believe will change it. And SIMILARLY if neither exists, nothing we believe will change that either. I really don't think you are getting this last part.
Like the apple it is what it is, if you and I knew nothing of it being there too, correct?
You think the reality of the apple is different than the reality of God?
Please try to follow this.
Your position is 'God exists' and our views on that change nothing. But that goes both ways kelly if there actually is no God.
07 Sep 19
@kellyjay saidAgain, if there is no God our musings will not change that either. You saying 'God 'is' there' doesn't make it so either.
He simply isn't there is a truth statement, a matter of faith on your part. You can say He isn't there that does not make it so, and your denying it as my accepting it doesn't alter what is real and true about God. It is not human musing that sets up reality, we can create our world views, but that doesn't mean, that what we came up with to look at the world around us, is ac ...[text shortened]... or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.
07 Sep 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidDenial does not alter the truth either if He is real. The point is that absolutes are real; the truth is not a relative thing; the truth will be actual regardless of varying and opposing opinions to it. They do not depend on us; as a matter of fact, our finding the truth is exceedingly essential to our lives. We cannot be satisfied with lies, errors, but only the truth. Just as we cannot deny truth is real without contradiction, our lives cannot be satisfied with falsehood without damage.
Yes, it is what it is. If either the apple or God exist nothing we believe will change it. And SIMILARLY if neither exists, nothing we believe will change that either. I really don't think you are getting this last part.
Your position is 'God exists' and our views on that change nothing. But that goes both ways kelly if there actually is no God.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidSo you agree truth isn't dependent upon what we want, how we want it to be, but it is absolutely real no matter what one wants or thinks?
Again, if there is no God our musings will not change that either. You saying 'God 'is' there' doesn't make it so either.
08 Sep 19
@kellyjay saidDo you accept that your assertion that your God figure exists is a subjective [and not objective] personal opinion?
So you agree truth isn't dependent upon what we want, how we want it to be, but it is absolutely real no matter what one wants or thinks?
08 Sep 19
@kellyjay saidWhen it comes to an "unknowable" matter [like supernatural causality and divine law, for example], the "truth" of it is in the eye of the beholder, and any claim made about that "unknowable" matter, regardless of how earnest and convinced the beholder is, that assertion is subjective and speculative.
So you agree truth isn't dependent upon what we want, how we want it to be, but it is absolutely real no matter what one wants or thinks?
08 Sep 19
@kellyjay saidYes, and that includes YOUR perception of truth. Do you get that?
So you agree truth isn't dependent upon what we want, how we want it to be, but it is absolutely real no matter what one wants or thinks?
I agree that if God exists my views on the matter won't change that. Do you agree that if God DOESN'T exist, your views won't change that either?!
God's existence isn't proven so YOU can't take that as a default position of an absolute truth. (As the exact opposite could be the absolute truth).
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08 Sep 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidKellyJay has to adopt the philosophical position that people choose to reject an objectively present God in order to maintain any justification of his enteral torture in Hell nonsense.
Yes, it is what it is. If either the apple or God exist nothing we believe will change it. And SIMILARLY if neither exists, nothing we believe will change that either. I really don't think you are getting this last part.
Your position is 'God exists' and our views on that change nothing. But that goes both ways kelly if there actually is no God.
08 Sep 19
1 edit
@ghost-of-a-duke saidThe point is not our perceptions of truth; there is no way around each of us passing judgment upon what is and is not valid. Our views do not alter what is true about God. If God is real, personal views will be meaningless to that fact, because all truth, real truth is true for everyone, all the time, everywhere. If we discover truth, our discovery of it does not add to the truth or change it; it changes us; we are affected by both errors, truth, lies, by our foundational views of life. If we miss the truth, we then view everything that has something do with it will color all things wrong, while getting it right will be looking at things as is.
Yes, and that includes YOUR perception of truth. Do you get that?
I agree that if God exists my views on the matter won't change that. Do you agree that if God DOESN'T exist, your views won't change that either?!
God's existence isn't proven so YOU can't take that as a default position of an absolute truth. (As the exact opposite could be the absolute truth).
A godless world matters when we look at each other, we are then the only ones who set standards of right and wrong, if we say it, it is for us. While on the other hand, a Creator God alters all things from how we view all things. The truth matters, so bantering about opinions highlights someone has one, does not alter or even addresses anything to do with truth. When people become the subject what is real is not addressed, we look at personalities, not truth directly. So what is more critical, personalities or truth, because we are all flawed, the truth is not going to be us, it is going to be outside of us. What is real and authentic we all have opinions on, but are they based on truth or not.
The exact opposite of absolute truth, is what an absolute lie, or falsehood which means there is absolute truth?
08 Sep 19
@kellyjay saidIt is, of course, your prerogative to share your personal opinions - as you are here, and as you do week in week out - about what you think is an "absolute truth" or an "absolute lie" with regard to supernatural matters.
The exact opposite of absolute truth, is what an absolute lie, or falsehood which means there is absolute truth?
08 Sep 19
@kellyjay saidOkay Kelly, I give up bashing my head against that rock. You're just not listening.
The point is not our perceptions of truth; there is no way around each of us passing judgment upon what is and is not valid. Our views do not alter what is true about God. If God is real, personal views will be meaningless to that fact, because all truth, real truth is true for everyone, all the time, everywhere. If we discover truth, our discovery of it does not add to the ...[text shortened]... posite of absolute truth, is what an absolute lie, or falsehood which means there is absolute truth?
08 Sep 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidFunny I am thinking the same thing about you. It seems to me your more concerned about me agreeing with you, than what is.
Okay Kelly, I give up bashing my head against that rock. You're just not listening.
08 Sep 19
@kellyjay saidI think you know as well as Ghost of a Duke does that your conjecture and faith in supernatural causality and divine law are subjective and not objective. I am pretty sure you recognize this. Your "absolute truths" about "unknowable" or unprovable matters pertaining to your God figure and your religious beliefs are all personal opinions.
Funny I am thinking the same thing about you. It seems to me your more concerned about me agreeing with you, than what is.
@ghost-of-a-duke saidI am only speaking about truth here and that it is never relative. Don’t make this more than that!
Okay Kelly, I give up bashing my head against that rock. You're just not listening.