Originally posted by galveston75Many people who are "good" in their own eyes will perish forever.
Is Hell only for bad people? Was anyone good ever in it according to the Bible?
This place of final punishment is not called Hell in the Bible. It is called the lake of fire.
To believe in Jesus Christ is to be justified according to God's standard of righteousness.
The "goodness" of all those who believe is Christ Himself. And being in Christ they will never perish forever in this lake of fire.
Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved from eternal punishment. If you trust in your own goodness and reject Christ's salvation you will perish in that endless punishment.
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that every one who believes into Him would not perish, but have eternal life.
For God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
He who believes into Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed into the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:16-18)
"He who believes into the Son has eternal life; but he who disobeys the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him." (John 3:36)
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Originally posted by Rajk999========================
You are making no sense here.
The passage is saying God will kill both body and soul in hell.
You are saying God will NOT KILL but torture and suffer eternally those found evil.
Do you understand ?
You are making no sense here.
The passage is saying God will kill both body and soul in hell.
You are saying God will NOT KILL but torture and suffer eternally those found evil.
Do you understand ?
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I understand what you mean. You mean that the passages teaches that after the body is annhilated in physical death, the soul will also be annhilated by being "killed" in Gehenna.
The reason for the teaching is to warn the disciples that there is a more serious fear to fear besides that which mere mankind inspires.
"And do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."
Man has a certain power and authority to harm the disciples. But compared to the further authority and power that God possesses, that power of man is not to be feared.
Rather, instead, that power and authority of God is to be really feared.
Gehenna, is a word picture used to discribe that punishment of God which goes BEYOND what mankind can inflict. Man may kill the body but cannot kill the soul.
God on the other hand "is able to destroy BOTH soul and body in Gehenna."
Your point is that we should understand Jesus to mean that we should fear God because He is able to annhilate the soul into nonexistence. And I would admit that just taking this passage alone one might arrive at that view.
But I think it is not reliable. The word for English "destroy" is used in verse 28 and not the "kill" of before.
In Mark 9:49 Jesus also speaks about this Gehenna. And there He says "Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. For everyone shall be salted with fire."
Salt is a preservative. The idea of the lost being "salted with fire" must mean that fire of this punishment preserves them rather than annhilates them. The fires of this Gehenna are truly awful and not like any fires we know. These fires will act as salt to preserve rather than annhilate.
The same theme of preservation for punishment rather than annhilation is strongly implied in the statements about "their worm" and the "unquenchable fire"
" ... it is better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into Gehenna, where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched. For everyone will be salted with fire." (Mark 9:47b-49)
1.) It is not that "the worm" does not die. But it is very personal - "THEIR worm" does not die.
2.) The warning is that the instruments of punishment do not cease. The instruments of punishment being "thier worm" and the "unquenchable fire". What is awful is that the instruments of torment do not pass out of existence. It would only be a warning if the implication was that the sufferer UNDER the instruments of punishment ALSO does not cease to exist.
3.) The word picture "salted with fire" suggests preservation for perpetual punishment.
Based on these two words on Gehenna (Matt. 10:28 with Mark 9:47-49) annhilation is less likely the Lord's meaning but rather endless punishment.
Revelation 14 and 20 would seem to confirm the fearsome possibility of God having the power and authority to punish forever.
Originally posted by CalJustQuite funny, I actually have never spoken to anyone within our own country LOL.
Hi Nicksten,
(Funny to think that you might be sitting just a stone's throw away in good ol' Joh'burg!)
That is my take on Hell too - it wasn't built for us! Also, the whole picture just does not gell with a loving God. However, how do you get over the immortal spirit bit, and the graphic descriptions in the Bible?
This used to worry me a lot. How co ...[text shortened]... must be a truly horrible punishment.
But burning for ever end ever? I think not.
It also bothers me to say that how would I enjoy heaven knowing that a loved one is en hell. I can only assume that God would not let us know that. I could be wrong, but I really don't know - it scares me, but I don't question it.
Originally posted by Rajk999From my point of view, (on a non technical side), eternal damnation and eternal suffering to me means the same thing. My reason is that hell is a place of suffering, if you're there, you are sure damned, wouldn't you agree?
Where the hell you people get this rubbish from is beyond me. It sure aint in the Bible. Is there such an expression in the Bible as 'eternal suffering' ? Eternal damnation simply means that you die and will never be raised. Nobody will ever be suffering for all eternity.
Like all your doctrines Jaywill, you take a piece of the Bible doctrine, add a cou ...[text shortened]... on, nothwithstanding any evil done subsequent to baptism .. again, an unbiblical conclusion.
Rajk999, you are not looking at the bigger picture. You are purely just reading the words and taking in what was written in the Bible as it stands and reads. jaywill is reading the same text and sees the message in the text he has given you, which is the bigger picture.
The bigger picture is that God said that souls live forever. The once going to hell will suffer from pain and their smoke will go up for ever and ever. This death that we speak of here is the death of a soul, death meaning doomed in hell. People can get awful technical and say death means you die and that's it. If this is the case, does it mean if you live, you live forever and that's it? If the first argument is true, then the second one should be too. Who is right, who is wrong?
Originally posted by Nicksteni am quite sure that it was Satan in fact who coined the term, 'you will positively not die', when in fact God had stated that they would. now isn't that quite interesting? i think so.
Rajk999, you are not looking at the bigger picture. You are purely just reading the words and taking in what was written in the Bible as it stands and reads. jaywill is reading the same text and sees the message in the text he has given you, which is the bigger picture.
The bigger picture is that God said that souls live forever. The once going to hell w ...[text shortened]... If the first argument is true, then the second one should be too. Who is right, who is wrong?
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Originally posted by Rajk999How does that make that there is not eternal perdition? That is what you were objecting to. Right?
Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the [b]doers of the law shall be justified.[/b]
"The soul that sinneth it shall die" does not change that.
Nor does Romans 2:13 change that.
Are you trying to change the subject ?
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieRobbie,
i am quite sure that it was Satan in fact who coined the term, 'you will positively not die', when in fact God had stated that they would. now isn't that quite interesting? i think so.
You have a very good question put to you, left hanging on epiphinehas's "deity of Jesus" discussion.
It has not escaped notice that you haven't replied yet.
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Originally posted by jaywilli thought that i gave an answer Jaywill, obviously once again it was not good enough, and to be perfectly honest with you, i devoted a lot of time and effort to that post, a lot, on numerous occasions i was up until 2.AM in the morning and still it was like, yeh we call the tunes and you Robbie will dance, and when i dared to broach the subject of the origins and the way that your doctrine was officially adopted and the manner of the man who was instrumental in getting it adopted, i became like a leprous fellow, a pestilent trouble maker, therefore i resolved in my heart that my time was wasted and really regretted having spent any effort whatsoever, not to mention some of the things i said, and in fact I have not left the question unanswered as you presume, for i have asked epiphinehas why he presumes to state, that even though we are to honour both the father and the son, that this makes them equal, or the same, for it is clearly apparent, from scripture, that they are not one and the same. i gave clear references to creatures who are due honour, are we also to presume that these are equal to and the same as the father?
Robbie,
You have a very good question put to you, left hanging on epiphinehas's [b]"deity of Jesus" discussion.
It has not escaped notice that you haven't replied yet.[/b]
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Originally posted by Rajk999=================================
Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the [b]doers of the law shall be justified.[/b]
Romans 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
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Rajk999,
Did you also continue to read on until in Romans 3:19,20?
"Now we know that whatever things the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may fall under the judgment of God. (v.19)
Because out of the works of the law no flesh shall be justified before Him; for through the law is the clear knowledge of sin." (v.20)
Did you notice that in spite of the principle of normalcy in 2:13, nevertheless the situation is not normal with man. Therefore "all the world may fall under the judgment of God" and "out of the works of the law NO FLESH shall be justified" ?
Then did you also notice in verse 21 - "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" ?
Paul is laying the foundation for justification by faith in Christ for eternal salvation.
"Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus. Whom God set forth as a propitation place through faith in His blood ..." (See 3:24,25)
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIf I comment further it will be back on epiphinehas's thread on "the deity of Christ".
i thought that i gave an answer Jaywill, obviously once again it was not good enough, and to be perfectly honest with you, i devoted a lot of time and effort to that post, a lot, on numerous occasions i was up until 2.AM in the morning and still it was like, yeh we call the tunes and you Robbie will dance, and when i dared to broach the subject of t ...[text shortened]... s who are due honour, are we also to presume that these are equal to and the same as the father?
...as I was saying before I left two days ago. The long and short and my story is that if it was right for satan to steal man's authority hereby making man join in the rebellion against God, is not also right for man to suffer the consequenses of his rebellion; seeing that he (man) choose willingly to rebel? And if the punishment for satan's rebellion against God is the eternal punishment in Hell-fire, for the which we all know that satan is a spirit, not a man with human flesh, not mortal. He can't die, he lives on, eternally. So would his place of banishment not be an eternal one?
And man, knowningly rebellious, should he not also suffer the same fate, since he joined satan?
Ok. Even if you say its not fair, consider this:
God sent his only begotten son, Jesus, to take the place of sinful man. He was perfect.
If God did not mind sending an innocent man to hell to suffer for us (u and i and our fore fathers) and because he was found innocent of the charge against him, acquited him and others who choose not to rebel with satan, who are u not to suffer for your own rebellion cos in the end, after all said and done, it stills boils down to if you believe or not.
Hell is real and belive it; satan and his demons, men and women who have said no to God's love will burn in hell for eternity.
I can go on but this should do...for now I hope.
Originally posted by galveston75No!!
But was any person that was good in God's eyes ever in Hell?
In fact, some people did not even die. People like Enoch, Elijah.
God is a just person and you would not believe His capacity for and to love until you just accept Him and trust Him.
This is not how He planned life. He had and still has better plans than this.