Originally posted by Rajk999So..it sounds like to me that Hell, Lake of Fire, Hades, Sheol, Gehenna and possibly the grave are all the same thing? Isn't the grave, as in being the dirt, called in the Bible Sheol and Hades?
The Bible is not abundantly clear on what or where hell or hell fire is. Hell is often used interchangeably with grave. Hell could be Gehenna, which was a place where the Jews burned garbage and the dead bodies of criminals. Lake of fire is not clearly explained either. Anyone who claims to know for certain what these terms mean is either lying or seriously brainwashed.
Rajk999,
I do not mind discussing with you some particularly difficult passages to the teaching of justification by faith.
But first let me be clear about where you stand. Otherwise I may be shadow boxing. Below you quote to me this:
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Matt 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
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What would you say being cast into the fire represents ?
Does the quotation of this passage now mean that you do believe in eternal punishment of fire ?
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Originally posted by jaywillNO . I do not.
Rajk999,
I do not mind discussing with you some particularly difficult passages to the teaching of justification by faith.
But first let me be clear about where you stand. Otherwise I may be shadow boxing. Below you quote to me this:
[b]=========================
Matt 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes o ...[text shortened]... otation of this passage now mean that you [b]do believe in eternal punishment of fire ?[/b][/b]
Further there is nothing that you can say to make me believe in eternal suffering.
Of course please go ahead and preach all you like to others.
As for justification by faith. I dont know what that means.
I beleive in what Christ said.
He said the wise man believes in Him and follows His commanements. The foolish man does not.
Clearly that says both faith and works are essential.
By the way, why would I trust your explanation of difficult passages when you fail to understand the simple passage I quoted in Matt 7. Do you think that salvation is for those brilliant religious intellectuals who have the secret key to unlocking the mystery of the Bible ?
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Originally posted by galveston75They may all be the same. I really cant say for sure.
So..it sounds like to me that Hell, Lake of Fire, Hades, Sheol, Gehenna and possibly the grave are all the same thing? Isn't the grave, as in being the dirt, called in the Bible Sheol and Hades?
Maybe some other more knowledgable reader can comment.
Originally posted by Rajk999==================================
NO . I do not.
Further there is nothing that you can say to make me believe in eternal suffering.
Of course please go ahead and preach all you like to others.
As for justification by faith. I dont know what that means.
I beleive in what Christ said.
He said the wise man believes in Him and follows His commanements. The foolish man does not.
Clearly that says both faith and works are essential.
I beleive in what Christ said.
He said the wise man believes in Him and follows His commanements. The foolish man does not.
Clearly that says both faith and works are essential.
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What does that have to do with justification ?
Let me put a broader question to you. I get kind of tired of always having to debate. Is there some way in which you would like me to help you understand something in the Bible?
Or are you just wanting to state your belief and say nothing can change you on that?
Which represents your reason for writing to me ?
Originally posted by jaywillIf I see that you write something eg eternal suffering, which I do not believe in, then I state my opinion. I do not think you can change my opinion. I have been studying the Bible for about 40 years and I have heard opinions of dozens of religions. The words of Christ are the key to eternal life.
[b]==================================
I beleive in what Christ said.
He said the wise man believes in Him and follows His commanements. The foolish man does not.
Clearly that says both faith and works are essential.
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What does that have to do with justification ?
Let me put a broader question to you. I ...[text shortened]... f and say nothing can change you on that?
Which represents your reason for writing to me ?[/b]
By all means continue to preach to others.
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Originally posted by Rajk999===========================
If I see that you write something eg eternal suffering, which I do not believe in, then I state my opinion. I do not think you can change my opinion. I have been studying the Bible for about 40 years and I have heard opinions of dozens of religions. The words of Christ are the key to eternal life.
By all means continue to preach to others.
If I see that you write something eg eternal suffering, which I do not believe in, then I state my opinion.
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Yes. I did notice that you stated your opinion strongly. I also noticed that you seemed not to have good reasons from the Bible on your opinion. I also noticed that when this was pointed out you really did not defend your opinion too well.
You had reasons. I think I exposed the weakness of most of them.
But you certainly are strong to state it.
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I do not think you can change my opinion.
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Maybe not. There is an old saying "A person convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."
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I have been studying the Bible for about 40 years and I have heard opinions of dozens of religions. The words of Christ are the key to eternal life.
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We are in agreement there about the words of Christ being the key to eternal life.
I don't think a person has to believe in eternal perdition in order to meet Jesus. My meeting of Jesus was not around that issue.
Do you know the Lord Jesus in an intimate way? Can you say that Jesus is really a real Person to you ?
So "if" all these places could be the same, the common grave as in being in a casket, how would one suffer? Or if all these places are the same and we burn forever assuming we were bad, where is this place at?
One more...If Satan, as is pictured by many to be the keeper of Hell and takes ones down to be tortured as a result of being condemed by God, wouldn't that kind of make them partners of sorts? I mean wouldn't God and Satan have to have something going on for this to work?
Originally posted by jaywillPlease, continue with the discussion and stop trying to convert me. Thanks.
[b]===========================
If I see that you write something eg eternal suffering, which I do not believe in, then I state my opinion.
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Yes. I did notice that you stated your opinion strongly. I also noticed that you seemed not to have good reasons from the Bible on your opinion. I also noticed that when ...[text shortened]... ow the Lord Jesus in an intimate way? Can you say that Jesus is really a real Person to you ?[/b]
Originally posted by galveston75As far as I can remember the Bible does not answer these questions so your guess is as good as anyone else's.
So "if" all these places could be the same, the common grave as in being in a casket, how would one suffer? Or if all these places are the same and we burn forever assuming we were bad, where is this place at?
One more...If Satan, as is pictured by many to be the keeper of Hell and takes ones down to be tortured as a result of being condemed by God, wo ...[text shortened]... rs of sorts? I mean wouldn't God and Satan have to have something going on for this to work?
Originally posted by galveston75===================
So "if" all these places could be the same, the common grave as in being in a casket, how would one suffer? Or if all these places are the same and we burn forever assuming we were bad, where is this place at?
One more...If Satan, as is pictured by many to be the keeper of Hell and takes ones down to be tortured as a result of being condemed by God, wo ...[text shortened]... rs of sorts? I mean wouldn't God and Satan have to have something going on for this to work?
So "if" all these places could be the same, the common grave as in being in a casket, how would one suffer?
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Are they the same ?
Sheol, Hades, Hell I probably would say are the same. I would not say that the literal "grave" is exactly the same unless some poetic license is allowed.
And the lake of fire is not exactly the same as Hades or Hell.
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Or if all these places are the same and we burn forever assuming we were bad, where is this place at?
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What I read is that whoever's name was not found written in the book of life of the Lamb was cast into the lake of fire. This is what I see in the final judgment in Revelation 20.
Rejecting Christ is the unique sin which causes people to perish in the lake of fire. That is how I understand the matter.
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One more...If Satan, as is pictured by many to be the keeper of Hell and takes ones down to be tortured as a result of being condemed by God, wouldn't that kind of make them partners of sorts?
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This is a concept based on perhaps the imaginitive writings of Milton. The idea of Satan as a keeper of Hell is extrabiblical I think.
I don't know about you but I want my understanding of these things to be based on what the Bible shows. When you start formulating concepts just upon popular ideas you are on shaky ground.
You might end up talking about a guy in a red jump suit with a pitchfork and say "Oh, how foolish the Bible is!"
Why not do a little more reading of the Bible for yourself? Master some more of the facts.
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I mean wouldn't God and Satan have to have something going on for this to work?
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I think you are running with assumptions here. I don't see that you are deriving these assumptions from the revelation of the Bible. I would wish that you would start some prayerful reading for yourself.
Here's an excellent Bible with helpful notes for study
www.recoveryversion.org
It is the main study Bible I use. But I have many English versions.
Originally posted by galveston75======================
Seems terribly confusing. It seems like such an important thing for us to know, that the Bible would be very, very clear on this.
One more question. According to Eccl 9:5,10 dead ones know nothing at all. If they were in Hell, how would they know that and that their suffering?
Seems terribly confusing. It seems like such an important thing for us to know, that the Bible would be very, very clear on this.
One more question. According to Eccl 9:5,10 dead ones know nothing at all. If they were in Hell, how would they know that and that their suffering?
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Ecclesiates is a wonderful book. I love Ecclesiastes.
Confusion though is also a lack of peace. And I think you should pray about this matter directly to the Lord Jesus. Pour out your heart to Jesus in a GOOD TALK to the Lord.
Try walking in a field where you can SPEAK UP without the self consciousness of being overheard.
But if that is not practical, I think you should open up your heart and take these questions directly to God asking Him for light.
Thanks..I'll do that. But looking back on things I've read before about the early Christian congregations and what they belived and in turn what most believe and practise now in churches seems worlds apart and even contradictory to the Bible and what Jesus and the apostles taught.
They all agreed that after they would be gone that many false teachings would be intruduced into the congregations and would corupt it. Is it possible that many of these ideas about Hell and going there to burn forever might be one of them?
Sorry for any misspellings. My eyes aren't so good.