What do you think about "Hell"??

Originally posted by Rajk999
So there is no such expression in the bible as 'eternal suffering'. So if you want to be taken seriously then dont use it.

You did not take this passage as it was delivered. You added 'eternal suffering' to it.

In this passage : "And the smoke of their tormenting GOES UP FOREVER AND EVER .....; AND THEY HAVE NO REST ... day and night ...."

The only ...[text shortened]... om Revelation. They take it from the mouth of Christ, and they dont modify or embelish it.

========================
So there is no such expression in the bible as 'eternal suffering'. So if you want to be taken seriously then dont use it.
==============================

You did not answer the question about Revelation 14:11. Will ignoring it make it go away?

Why does the Bible say here "and the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night ...??

Do not deflect to another issue. Take on the challenge of Rev. 14:11.

=====================
You did not take this passage as it was delivered. You added 'eternal suffering' to it.
=============================

I did not add anything to my quotation of the passage.

Point out where I "added" anything:

" ... and they have no rest day and night".


==============================
In this passage : "And the smoke of their tormenting GOES UP FOREVER AND EVER .....; AND THEY HAVE NO REST ... day and night ...."

The only thing that you can say is eternal (forever and ever) is the smoke and the fire. There is no reason to conclude that anyone is suffering eternally. Evil doers will burn until they die.
======================================

I have considered that interpretation and have to dismiss it as dangerously unreliable.

1.) What purpose would it serve to tell us that smoke goes up forever and ever just for its own sake ?

2.) It is not simply the perpetual ascending of smoke. It is "the smoke of their tormenting"

3.) If they were annhilated it would not be the smoke of their tormenting that went up forever and ever. The careful wording of the phrase assures that no misunderstanding is had - "the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever."

4.) The fact that "they have no rest day and night" reinforces the discription that their tormenting is perpetual.

5.) In the previous verse 10 it says that this wrath is "undiluted". "He also shall drink of the wine of the fury of God, which is mixed UNDILUTED in the cup of His wrath." [/b]

A diluted drink would indicate some amount of restraint or mercy on God's part. But this punishment is "undiluted". The full strength of the divine fury is the portion of the ones discribed in verse 11.

No wonder than that the undiluted fury of God is their tormenting forever and ever.

=============================
This is why I always say to stick with what Christ taught and you cant go wrong. Here is what He said :
================================

Christ also warned of perpetual punishment.

"Then He will say also to those on the left, Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41)

"And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matt. 25:46)


===================================
MT 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy BOTH SOUL and body in hell.

God will destroy both body and soul in the Hell. Destroy means they will die.
=====================================

We can more closely examine this objection of yours in another post.

=================================
Smart people dont take their doctrines from Revelation. They take it from the mouth of Christ, and they dont modify or embelish it.
==============================

Downgrading the book of Revelation will not help you.

If you adopt the tactic that you are not going to listen to the book of Revelation, I will count you as having lost the case regardless of how "smart" you think you are.

I have studied this subject probably more than you realize. If there are legitimate questions or problems about the teaching I do not mind acknowledging difficulties. But the over all case for perpetual punishment rather than annhilation is very strong.

For a scholarly treatment of the subject I would refer you to Robert Govett's book "Eternal Suffering of the Wicked and Hades" you may obtain from:

Schoettle Publishing CO. INC.
P.O. Box 594
Miami Springs, Florida 33166

Look it up on the Web first because they may have moved to North Carolina.

Originally posted by jaywill
[b]========================
So there is no such expression in the bible as 'eternal suffering'. So if you want to be taken seriously then dont use it.
==============================

You did not answer the question about Revelation 14:11. Will ignoring it make it go away?

Why does the Bible say here "and the smoke of their t on the Web first because they may have moved to North Carolina.[/b]

Oh ... Robert Govett said so !! Wow !! The scholar ?
Boy o boy, am I in trouble now.

Thanks for telling me. I will have to contact Christ somehow and let him know that Jaywill and Robert said that the wicked must suffer for all eternity. I dont think Christ is aware of that.

He seems to think that the fire burns forever but that sinners will die. Remember He said the soul that sinneth it shall die? Not to worry, I will let Christ know that Robert Govett said that sinners must suffer forever .... 😀

Originally posted by Rajk999
Oh ... Robert Govett said so !! Wow !! The scholar ?
Boy o boy, am I in trouble now.

Thanks for telling me. I will have to contact Christ somehow and let him know that Jaywill and Robert said that the wicked must suffer for all eternity. I dont think Christ is aware of that.

He seems to think that the fire burns forever but that sinners will die. Rem ...[text shortened]... o worry, I will let Christ know that Robert Govett said that sinners must suffer forever .... 😀

wow, sarcasm, there's a new and intelligent way too make your point🙄

Originally posted by duecer
wow, sarcasm, there's a new and intelligent way too make your point🙄

I did make the point before or do you have a reading disability.
Then Jaywill came back with some rubbish about Robert whoever.

There are many people who are impressed with the teachings of scholars to the point where what Christ said is considered inferior. I guess you are one of them as well.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Oh ... Robert Govett said so !! Wow !! The scholar ?
Boy o boy, am I in trouble now.

Thanks for telling me. I will have to contact Christ somehow and let him know that Jaywill and Robert said that the wicked must suffer for all eternity. I dont think Christ is aware of that.

He seems to think that the fire burns forever but that sinners will die. Rem ...[text shortened]... o worry, I will let Christ know that Robert Govett said that sinners must suffer forever .... 😀

Nice sarcasm.

Now, where in there was your reply to my question about Rev. 14:11? Is your answer that because you do not derive your doctrines from Revelation, therefore you will not answer ?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Oh ... Robert Govett said so !! Wow !! The scholar ?
Boy o boy, am I in trouble now.

Thanks for telling me. I will have to contact Christ somehow and let him know that Jaywill and Robert said that the wicked must suffer for all eternity. I dont think Christ is aware of that.

He seems to think that the fire burns forever but that sinners will die. Rem ...[text shortened]... o worry, I will let Christ know that Robert Govett said that sinners must suffer forever .... 😀

=============================
Remember He said the soul that sinneth it shall die?
==================================

How does "The soul that sinneth it shall die" make
Revalation 14:11 not possible ?

It says "And the smoke of their tormenting goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest day and night ..."

How does "The soul that sinneth it shall die" make those dreadful matters impossible to happen ?

Originally posted by jaywill
Nice sarcasm.

Now, where in there was your reply to my question about [b]Rev. 14:11? Is your answer that because you do not derive your doctrines from Revelation, therefore you will not answer ?[/b]

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Anybody who can read and understand can see that the only thing that is eternal for ever and ever is the smoke. And this is exactly what others mentioned in other parts of the NT where perpetual fire or hell fire, or Sheol is described.

Suffering for all eternity is not mentioned in Rev 14:11. That is your addition. Thats your interpretation.

I said all that before. If you want to add to Revelation ... go ahead. Revelation is full of visions and symbolic language. You choose to ignore clear and simple statements by Christ in favour of Revelation, thats your choice.

Rajk999,

Revelation 20:10 - "And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimetone, where also the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Notice that the beast and the false prophet (two human beings) were cast alive into the lake of fire 1,000 years earlier. See Revelation 19:20. After 1,000 years the devil joins them.

How come the beast and the false prophet are not annhilated? It says that "THEY will be tormented day and night forever and ever".

Now two of them have been tormented there already for a thousand years. Then they are joined by a third. And the three of them as a "THEY" either commence to be tormented or CONTINUE to be tormented.

So how does "The soul that sinneth it shall die" make Revelation 20:10 impossible to happen ?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Anybody who can read and understand can see that the only thing that is eternal for ever and ever is the smoke. And this is exactly what others mentioned in other ...[text shortened]... oose to ignore clear and simple statements by Christ in favour of Revelation, thats your choice.

============================
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Anybody who can read and understand can see that the only thing that is eternal for ever and ever is the smoke.
========================================

It says "the smoke of their tormenting". It did not simply say that the smoke went up forever and ever. It is "the smoke OF THEIR TORMENTING".

There is no OTHER reason for the smoke to go up. The lake of fire is specifically prepared for such a purpose:

" ... the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matt. 25:41).

The rebellious and unbelieving share the same co-destiny as their leader. His fate becomes their fate. The everlasting fire was prepared for the devil and his angels.


You speak of symbolism and signs. We do not need to know the science of such a matter. We only need to know that this place is to be avoided at all costs. Because it is a punishment for Satan which will be shared by cursed human sinners who are not saved.

Now how does "the soul that sinneth it shall die" make Matthew 25:41 somehow less dreadful?

===========================
Suffering for all eternity is not mentioned in Rev 14:11. That is your addition. Thats your interpretation.
==============================

I have not seen you propose a more accurate interpretation. I have seen mostly an emotional and sarcastic rejection of my sound interpretation.

============================
I said all that before. If you want to add to Revelation ... go ahead. Revelation is full of visions and symbolic language. You choose to ignore clear and simple statements by Christ in favour of Revelation, thats your choice.
===================

So you're solution to putting away the matter of eternal perdition is to claim that the book of Revelation should be ignored.

Yet even in the Gospels, Christ applies Isaiah 66:24 to warn that there IS a punishment which is endless:

Compare:

"Then they will go forth and look on the carcasses of the men that have trangressed against Me; For their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all flesh." (Isa. 66:24)

" ... and be thrown into Gehenna, where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched." (Mark 9:47b,48)

In verse 43 Jesus refers to "unquenchable fire". Without understanding the science of it it should be clear that this is a fate to be avoided at all costs.

And why? Because there is no relief. That is the import of the teaching.

"The soul that sinneth it shall die" did not stop Jesus Christ from teaching of this unquenchable punishing flame.

Originally posted by jaywill
Rajk999,

[b] Revelation 20:10 - "And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimetone, where also the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Notice that the beast and the false prophet (two human beings) were cast alive into the lake of fire 1,000 years earlier. ...[text shortened]... soul that sinneth it shall die"[/b] make Revelation 20:10 impossible to happen ?[/b]

There is a school of thought that says the devil is merely a personification of sin and not a real being.

But lets say he is real. How does the Devil, the Beast and False Prophet being tormented day and night for ever in Rev 20, mean that Rev 14 also means tormented forever? I dont understand your logic.

Rev 20 is specific to the Devil and Beast etc.

Rev 14 is specific to worshippers of the Beast and his image.

Two totally different things.

Christ said the soul that sinneth it shall die which means destroyed. ALso:
MT 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy BOTH SOUL and body in hell.

After that destruction there is nothingness. How can there be torment.

Originally posted by Rajk999
There is a school of thought that says the devil is merely a personification of sin and not a real being.

But lets say he is real. How does the Devil, the Beast and False Prophet being tormented day and night for ever in Rev 20, mean that Rev 14 also means tormented forever? I dont understand your logic.

Rev 20 is specific to the Devil and Beast etc.
...[text shortened]... OUL and body in hell.

After that destruction there is nothingness. How can there be torment.

==============================
There is a school of thought that says the devil is merely a personification of sin and not a real being.
================================

So let's try this out. Because the Devil is just a personification THEREFORE we needn't worry about him REALLY being tormented forever and ever. Right ?

But wait a minute! It said "THEY ... will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Rev. 20:10)

The beast and the false prophet are human beings (Antichrist and his false prophet). So how does the Devil being only a personification help them ?

Plus the fact that those mentioned in Revlation 14:11 are sinful humans who followed the Antichrist. How does the Devil being only a personification help them ?

Symbolizing the Devil away into only a personification doesn't help your case.

I'll look at your other question below.

Originally posted by Rajk999
There is a school of thought that says the devil is merely a personification of sin and not a real being.

But lets say he is real. How does the Devil, the Beast and False Prophet being tormented day and night for ever in Rev 20, mean that Rev 14 also means tormented forever? I dont understand your logic.

Rev 20 is specific to the Devil and Beast etc.
...[text shortened]... OUL and body in hell.

After that destruction there is nothingness. How can there be torment.

======================================
But lets say he is real. How does the Devil, the Beast and False Prophet being tormented day and night for ever in Rev 20, mean that Rev 14 also means tormented forever? I dont understand your logic.
====================================

Revelation 14:11 stands on its own. I did not make its independent logic dependent on Revelation 20:10.

Each of the two passages stand on their own.

============================
Rev 20 is specific to the Devil and Beast etc.
================================

I will grant you that Revelation 20:10 specifically deals with the Devil, the beast and the false prophet.

However, it should be clear that any place where someone has been tormented for 1,000 years and looks forward to be tormented further " day and night forever and ever" is probably a place best to avoid.

Would you not agree ? The same place is said to be where all those whose names were NOT found written in the book of life, are thrown (Rev. 20:15).

====================================
Rev 14 is specific to worshippers of the Beast and his image.
================================

I also grant you that. Revelation 14:11 refers specifically to the worshippers of the Antichrist. However, notice what immediately follows verse 11 -

"Here is the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Rev. 14:12)

There is the strongest suggestion that the faith of Jesus and the commandments of God should be held to in order to avoid such a fate.

Plus the fact that the same virtual place is the common destiny of all those whose names are not written in the book of life (Rev. 20:15)

So even though Revelation 14 is specific about who is being punished, the strong indication is that the same place is the destiny of all those whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life.

I would not take a chance on there being a different outcome.

========================
Two totally different things.

Christ said the soul that sinneth it shall die which means destroyed. ALso:
MT 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy BOTH SOUL and body in hell.
===================================

This is not a good passage for your case. It is the exact opposite of annhilation. With annhilation of death there should not be further cause for fear.

Yet this is precisely what Jesus is warning about. Man can kill the body. But that is all the harm that man can do to you. You need to realize that God has authority beyond this. God is able to punish further even once your body has been killed.

So this passage that you grasp at for support backfires terribly on the idea of escape from damnation through annhilation.

Originally posted by jaywill


This is not a good passage for your case. It is the exact opposite of annhilation. With annhilation of death there should not be further cause for fear.

Yet this is precisely what Jesus is warning about. Man can kill the body. But that is all the harm that man can do to you. You need to realize that God has auth rasp at for support backfires terribly on the idea of escape from damnation through annhilation.

You are making no sense here.

The passage is saying God will kill both body and soul in hell.
You are saying God will NOT KILL but torture and suffer eternally those found evil.

Do you understand ?

Is Hell only for bad people? Was anyone good ever in it according to the Bible?