1. PenTesting
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    22 Sep '14 19:02
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    I'm going by what already has happened, YEC's totally ignore or distort any evidence the Earth and/or the universe is anything more than the ridiculous number of 6000 years. That is so mind bogglingly stupid as to defy understanding. So fierce is the programming they do ANYTHING to not believe that ridiculousness. I think the same would go for the afterlif ...[text shortened]... ion of consciousness but a return after the end of time or some such.

    Still a tenuous belief.
    And for you YECs = All Religion.

    You are not right in your heal pal. You are a non-religious extremist.
  2. PenTesting
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    22 Sep '14 19:04
    Originally posted by lemon lime
    Would you rather have me toss dozens of snowballs at you rather than just the one I came with? That's no way to win a snowball fight... it seems to me you should encourage all of your opponents to come armed with only one verse. 😀
    One or several verses .. just come up with something rather than talk and opinion.
  3. PenTesting
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    22 Sep '14 19:11
    Originally posted by lemon lime
    Only one... the one where Jesus said he didn't come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. The purpose of my questions following that was to invite anyone to think about what it means to fulfill a requirement.

    He did talk about his death and resurrection before he was nailed to the cross. The fact that the understanding of this did not sink in until after it happened is not so hard to understand.
    I dont think that deals with the questions I asked Checkbaiter on his statement. Do you have any more to add?

    Anyway here is the passage you referenced:

    Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-19 KJV)

    Here is a note taken from Adam Clarke's commentary "

    Do not imagine that I am come to violate the law καταλυσαι, from κατα, and λυω, I loose, violate, or dissolve - I am not come to make the law of none effect - to dissolve the connection which subsists between its several parts, or the obligation men are under to have their lives regulated by its moral precepts; nor am I come to dissolve the connecting reference it has to the good things promised. But I am come, πληρωσαι, to complete - to perfect its connection and reference, to accomplish every thing shadowed forth in the Mosaic ritual, to fill up its great design; and to give grace to all my followers, πληρωσαι, to fill up, or complete, every moral duty. In a word, Christ completed the law:
    1st. In itself, it was only the shadow, the typical representation, of good things to come; and he added to it that which was necessary to make it perfect, His Own Sacrifice, without which it could neither satisfy God, nor sanctify men.
    2dly. He completed it in himself by submitting to its types with an exact obedience, and verifying them by his death upon the cross.
    3dly. He completes this law, and the sayings of his prophets, in his members, by giving them grace to love the Lord with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength, and their neighbor as themselves; for this is all the law and the prophets.
  4. Standard memberlemon lime
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    22 Sep '14 19:15
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    One or several verses .. just come up with something rather than talk and opinion.
    What's wrong with the one I showed? Jesus said he came to fulfill the law. Are you suggesting he did not say that?
  5. Standard memberlemon lime
    itiswhatitis
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    22 Sep '14 19:17
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I dont think that deals with the questions I asked Checkbaiter on his statement. Do you have any more to add?

    Anyway here is the passage you referenced:

    Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise ...[text shortened]... d, and strength, and their neighbor as themselves; for this is all the law and the prophets.
    I'm ignorant... what does this verse mean?

    "Always learning but never coming to a knowledge of the truth."
  6. PenTesting
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    22 Sep '14 19:45
    Originally posted by lemon lime
    I'm ignorant... what does this verse mean?

    "Always learning but never coming to a knowledge of the truth."
    This one?

    This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. (2 Timothy 3:1-7 KJV)

    This sounds like Paul predicting that so-called Christianity in the last days would go astray. Modern Christianity preach that
    - their sins would not be held against them
    - they are saved eternally and do not have to follow Christ commandments.

    Sounds a lot like Paul is talking of you and your OSAS group.
  7. Standard memberDeepThought
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    22 Sep '14 20:35
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    You probably do not realise that Jesus himself never preached to anyone that they have to believe in or to fully understand his death and resurrection. Even in the longest discourse from Christ on record in the gospels The Sermon on the Mount, nothing was said about believing in Christ or understand His death and resurrection. Its interesting that the discip ...[text shortened]... her or not a person will be part of Gods Kingdom to come.

    Let me know if you need references.
    I don't need a reference to find the Sermon on the Mount. Your post seems to indicate though that how one lives is what is important and not belief?
  8. PenTesting
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    22 Sep '14 20:531 edit
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    I don't need a reference to find the Sermon on the Mount. Your post seems to indicate though that how one lives is what is important and not belief?
    I meant references for all the stuff I said not just the Sermon on the Mount.

    'Yes' to the question. It is what Christ spent his life preaching. Paul also said in Romans 2 that even those who know no law will be judged by the law by which they live. People have a conscience that guides them to determine what is right from what is wrong. They will b e judged by how they live.
  9. Standard memberDeepThought
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    22 Sep '14 21:54
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I meant references for all the stuff I said not just the Sermon on the Mount.

    'Yes' to the question. It is what Christ spent his life preaching. Paul also said in Romans 2 that even those who know no law will be judged by the law by which they live. People have a conscience that guides them to determine what is right from what is wrong. They will b e judged by how they live.
    Does "know no law" mean someone unaware of the existence of the Bible such as a Germanic Pagan in Paul's time, does it apply to those brought up in contemporary atheist households, and does it apply to those who ceased to believe?
  10. R
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    22 Sep '14 22:06
    Matthew 5:20, "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."
    MATTHEW 5:17-22

    What did Jesus mean? Since the Pharisees fasted twice each week, does this mean we have to fast three times each week? Since they paid tithes on everything including spices, does this mean that anyone who fails to tithe is doomed to hell?

    No! Definitely not. The Pharisees' righteousness was based on their actions. Jesus is advocating a righteousness that is based on faith in what He did for us.

    Trusting in our own actions will never grant us access to God. We may be better than others, but who wants to be the best sinner that ever went to hell? We have all sinned and come short of perfection which is what God requires (Rom. 3:23).

    The only one who was ever good enough to earn right standing with God is Jesus. And His righteousness is offered as a gift to anyone who will put their faith in Him as their Savior.

    Jesus offers us a righteousness by faith that is so far superior to the self righteousness that the Pharisees had that there is no comparison. This is the righteousness that we need and which is available to us only through faith in Christ.
  11. R
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    22 Sep '14 22:12
    THE LAW IS NOT OF FAITH
    Mark 7:2, "And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault."
    MARK 7:1-7

    Man looks on the outward appearance (this is what the scribes and Pharisees were concerned with), but the Lord looks on the heart (1 Sam. 16:7). Jesus looked on men's hearts. The Old Testament laws concerning washing served a secondary purpose of hygiene, but as stated in Colossians 2:16-17 and Hebrews 9:1,9-10, their real purpose was to shadow or illustrate spiritual truth.

    Defiled food may hurt our bodies, but it cannot reach our spirits (Jn. 3:6).

    The scribes and Pharisees missed the principle of spiritual purity taught by the Old Testament ordinances and became obsessed with strict adherence to their rituals. While they relentlessly enforced the laws dealing with the physical realm, they had become completely corrupt in the spiritual realm.

    "The law is not of faith." When combined with Romans 14:23 which says, "...whatsoever is not of faith is sin," this statement must have been near blasphemy to the legalistic Jews, just as it is to legalistic Christians today. It is sin for the New Testament believer to try to relate to God by attempting to keep the Old Testament law. The law itself is not sin (Rom. 7:7). But it is sin to try to use the law for justification with God. This was never the purpose of the law.

    Under the law a person got what he deserved. Under faith, the New Testament believer receives grace because of what Jesus did for him. Any departure from faith, especially a departure back to the Old Testament law, voids the work of Christ (Gal. 2:21) and is the worst sin of all. Only faith in Jesus Christ has the key that unlocks the door to the law's harsh imprisonment of guilt and condemnation. With a great price He has purchased your freedom. Walk in it today and enjoy His Life.
  12. Standard memberKellyJay
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    22 Sep '14 22:17
    John 13: 34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

    I would say before anyone starts telling each other how wrong or bad they
    are have they done this first? Can people tell you actually love those here,
    or not? If you are just mouthing doctrine and not walking the walk, who
    cares what you believe?
    Kelly
  13. R
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    22 Sep '14 22:261 edit
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    John 13: 34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

    I would say before anyone starts telling each other how wrong or bad they
    are have they done this first? Can people tell you actually love those here,
    or not? If you are just mouthing doctrine and not walking the walk, who
    cares what you believe?
    Kelly
    I agree. Another way of saying it is, "People don't care what you know, they want to know if you care."

    But caring is not enough, an accurate discernment of scripture is also needed.
  14. PenTesting
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    22 Sep '14 22:47
    Originally posted by DeepThought
    Does "know no law" mean someone unaware of the existence of the Bible such as a Germanic Pagan in Paul's time, does it apply to those brought up in contemporary atheist households, and does it apply to those who ceased to believe?
    Romans 2 goes to great lengths to demonstrate the following principle :

    .. there is no respect of persons with God. Romans 2:11

    All of mankind will be judged by the righteous judgment of God. Nobody gets special treatment
  15. PenTesting
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    22 Sep '14 22:541 edit
    Originally posted by checkbaiter
    .. The Pharisees' righteousness was based on their actions.

    Jesus is advocating a righteousness that is based on faith in what He did for us....
    Here you make two statements which to the uneducated eye, seem to come straight out of the Bible.

    The Pharisees' righteousness was based on their actions.

    Jesus is advocating a righteousness that is based on faith in what He did for us.



    Do you have the supporting references for them?
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