What's wrong with Christmas?

Originally posted by sjeg
That actually wasn't a bad post. Good turn-around. I'd even rec you myself, if I were a member.

and neither should be allowed too much power, as their extremism inevitably clouds their judgement.
Although it is asking too much, in the paraphrased words of The Who, may we not get fooled again.

Originally posted by sjeg
That actually wasn't a bad post. Good turn-around. I'd even rec you myself, if I were a member.

On "persecution complex", I suggest that your language is rather unfortunate, as Christians today are persecuted and killed for their faith from Palestine to Poso.

My theory on this is as follows. L.H. made a valid point above- that so many "rationalists" see ...[text shortened]... their extremism inevitably clouds their judgement.

I hope that explains my position.

Yes, in some countries xians are still persecuted. This is particularly true in states that have fused Islam with their government. Their hostility is not directed only toward xians but also toward non-believers. There is a higher number of xian deaths for two reasons. First, there are more xians there. Second, in some cases, the xian makes trouble for himself or herself by prostelytizing in a place that (s)he knows is dangerous. It's a tragedy that these attacks occur. Unfortunately, this is what happens when exclusivist religious orthodoxy is mixed with government. Xian governments in the past have been responsible for similar inhumane actions so it is not a unique trait of deeply Islamic governments. If anything, the fact that these incidents no longer occur in western societies is strong evidence for the efficacy of church/state seperation.

I do not deny that most of the criticism offered by non-believers in the spirituality forum is directed at xianity. I do not think this reflects that we have some agenda to mock and eliminate xianity. Rather it is a product of the large and vocal crowd of fundamentalist xians here. We here at RHP have been endowed with more than our fair share of zealous evangelicals. The self-righteousness and arrogant manner in which they debate combined generally with far less knowledge invites scorn.

As for attacks against xianity in the wider world, I'd again chalk it up to perception. I really don't think it's anything more than changing opinions in the society as a whole. Note that for any perceived media slam against xianity, I can find 10 slams against "liberals" and "secularists" on any one of the many US xian tv networks. For any piece of US legislation that permits behavior fundamentalist xians find unacceptable (e.g. homosexuality, abortion), I can show you 10 more pieces pushed by the Religious Right in the American South or Midwest.

Many of us do argue strongly against fundamentalist xianity here. How else should we respond in the face of fallacy and err than with reason and knowledge? I've found that many of us are not so "staunch" in our beliefs are you perceive. The very path that led us to freethought or skepticism, led us also to being open-minded and self-critical. Many of us promote the freedom of individuals to think what they please and worship as they wish. We tend to be promote the liberties of individuals in contrast to the authoritarian pursuits of fundamentalists. Remember though that open-mindedness is not the personal acceptance of every position, but rather the willingness to consider any position. If a position has been shown to be unreasonable, than we are perfectly justified in rejecting it personally. In general, I think we are a rather inquisitive and curious lot. As for myself, since rejecting my previous beliefs and acknowledging my non-theistic (i.e. atheistic) worldview, I have lived a more fulfilling life, so thanks for your concern but I'll maintain my "predicament."


Finally, where in my last post did I box you in as a fundamentalist? Do not twist my words. I only claimed that you're a xian. Is this not correct? I'm also noticing that your reactionary behavior here runs counter to the moderate leanings you profess. Do you think it is possible that your views are not so mainstream and moderate, but rather that you are assuming the approval of the majority without merit?

> Maybe people take the Christ out of Christmas if they aren't Christian themselves and don't want to by hypocritical?

That's funny. If they truly don't want to be hypocritical, they shouldn't celebrate the birth of someone they don't think is special. The reason for all of the gift giving and parties in late December is Christmas. If one doesn't want to celebrate, that's cool, don't. But if somone is going to buy and exchange gifts, go to parties, and otherwise have a celebration, then they should at least be honest enough to call it what it is. I'd bet you'd be insulted if I came to your birthday party but refused to acknowledge you.

Daniel

Originally posted by DanielPasono
> Maybe people take the Christ out of Christmas if they aren't Christian themselves and don't want to by hypocritical?

That's funny. If they truly don't want to be hypocritical, they shouldn't celebrate the birth of someone they don't think is special. The reason for all of the gift giving and parties in late December is Christmas. If one doesn't wa e insulted if I came to your birthday party but refused to acknowledge you.

Daniel

You may be surprised to learn that the origin of the holiday has nothing to do with birth of Christ. Check it out. It's interesting.

Originally posted by telerion
Yes, in some countries xians are still persecuted. This is particularly true in states that have fused Islam with their government. Their hostility is not directed only toward xians but also toward non-believers. There is a higher number of xian deaths for two reasons. First, there are more xians there. Second, in some cases, the xian makes trouble for te, but rather that you are assuming the approval of the majority without merit?

Telerion: "How else should we respond in the face of fallacy and err than with reason and knowledge? "

I love people with humour ..... 😀


Telerion; " The very path that led us to freethought or skepticism, led us also to being open-minded and self-critical. "

.... open-minded and self critical ....... LMSO ...... 😀🙄


... it led you to self-righteousness, arrogance and an attitude of moral superiority ..... puke puke .....

Originally posted by ivanhoe
I love people with humour ..... 😀

.... open-minded and self critical ....... LMSO ...... 😀🙄

This feigned jocularity trip you're on is tiresome. Yes, free-thinkers tend to be much more open-minded and self-aware. They are generally more capable of reasoned, critical thought (excluding myself). You are nothing but a drone, and a puppet. All your thoughts are disseminated from the Vatican via catechisms. Which keeps you intellectually stunted....and quite happy, I'm sure.

Post a link to your 'criticisms' of the RCC. And so help you if they contain any "the RCC is too charitable and forgiving" nonsense.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
[b]Telerion: "How else should we respond in the face of fallacy and err than with reason and knowledge? "

I love people with humour ..... 😀


Telerion; " The very path that led us to freethought or skepticism, led us also to being open-minded and self-critical. "

.... open-minded and self critical ....... LMSO ...... 😀🙄


... it l ...[text shortened]... o self-righteousness, arrogance and an attitude of moral superiority ..... puke puke .....[/b]

Self criticism normally leads people to be less arrogant, rather than more arrogant, for the simple reason that when you see your own weaknesses it's less easy to think of yourself as great or fantastic. I, for example, regularly have great bouts of self doubt, where I doubt my ability to do my job etc. I have to remind myself that I did get the job on the basis of my abilities and that the people I work with seem happy with my progress. I'm happy with where I am, but my self-doubt makes me push myself harder, not to rest on my proverbial laurels.

It annoys me when people seek to denigrate others, the way you have done here, when someone has a conflicting opinion to yours. You should be ashamed of yourself, but I doubt you will be. Don't worry Ivanhoe, the rest of your buddies will be along soon to pat you on that back and give you 500 recs.

Originally posted by David C
This feigned jocularity trip you're on is tiresome. Yes, free-thinkers tend to be much more open-minded and self-aware. They are generally more capable of reasoned, critical thought (excluding myself). You are nothing but a drone, and a puppet. All your thoughts are disseminated from the Vatican via catechisms. Which keeps you intellectually stunted.. C. And so help you if they contain any "the RCC is too charitable and forgiving" nonsense.

DavidC: "Yes, free-thinkers tend to be much more open-minded and self-aware."

Self-righteous and arrogant, that's what you mean.

DavidC: " All your thoughts are disseminated from the Vatican via catechisms."

LMSO .... How come all you "free"thinkers think alike ? I never, NEVER, witness any discussions at all between you guys here at RHP. The only thing you are capable of is patronizing Evangelicals and quibbling with them about totally uninteresting utterly boring issues and parrotting the phrases you heard in Michael Moore's documentaries when bickering about politics. No original thoughts whatsoever. I haven't read any original political analyses by liberals here on the debates forum. It's always the same whining about Bush's stupidity, his lies and his alleged moral inferiority. Never, never, have I read anything that goes deeper than "Bush sucks". Every freethought site contains the same superficial clichés and every "free"thinker parrots them more zealously than the most zealous religious fundamentalist. How boring you guys are .....

DavidC: "Which keeps you intellectually stunted....and quite happy, I'm sure."

Are all liberals such self-righteous, arrogant know-it-alls as we are able to detect here on RHP or are there also exceptions to the rule ?

Who are they ?

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Self criticism normally leads people to be less arrogant, rather than more arrogant, for the simple reason that when you see your own weaknesses it's less easy to think of yourself as great or fantastic. I, for example, regularly have great bouts of self doubt, where I doubt my ability to do my job etc. I have to remind myself that I did get the job o e, the rest of your buddies will be along soon to pat you on that back and give you 500 recs.

Scot: "It annoys me when people seek to denigrate others, the way you have done here, when someone has a conflicting opinion to yours."

You seem to be missing Nemesio's posts, Telerion's posts, Frogstomp's posts, etc etc and last but not least the marauder's posts. I adress their arrogance, their condescending way of talking down to people and their insults. It seems you have missed this.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Self criticism normally leads people to be less arrogant, rather than more arrogant, for the simple reason that when you see your own weaknesses it's less easy to think of yourself as great or fantastic. I, for example, regularly have great bouts of self doubt, where I doubt my ability to do my job etc. I have to remind myself that I did get the job o e, the rest of your buddies will be along soon to pat you on that back and give you 500 recs.

Scot: "Self criticism normally leads people to be less arrogant, rather than more arrogant, ... "

This shows that liberals do not practise self-criticism. They do not know what that is. Their arrogance sometimes becomes unbearable.

"I'm happy with where I am, but my self-doubt makes me push myself harder, not to rest on my proverbial laurels."


..... your "laurels" ? ......

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Scot: "It annoys me when people seek to denigrate others, the way you have done here, when someone has a conflicting opinion to yours."

You seem to be missing Nemesio's posts, Telerion's posts, Frogstomp's posts, etc etc and last but not least the marauder's posts. I adress their arrogance, their condescending way of talking down to people and their insults. It seems you have missed this.

That's why you're everybody's hero, Ivanhoe. Do you jump around in front of your computer in a cape and tights?

Originally posted by telerion

Yes, in some countries xians are still persecuted. This is particularly true in states that have fused Islam with their government. Their hostility is not directed only toward xians but also toward non-believers. There is a higher number of xian deaths for two reasons. First, there are more xians there. Second, in some cases, the xian makes trouble for himself or herself by prostelytizing in a place that (s)he knows is dangerous. It's a tragedy that these attacks occur. Unfortunately, this is what happens when exclusivist religious orthodoxy is mixed with government. Xian governments in the past have been responsible for similar inhumane actions so it is not a unique trait of deeply Islamic governments. If anything, the fact that these incidents no longer occur in western societies is strong evidence for the efficacy of church/state seperation.

There are more Christians where? In many of the countries the Christians are a tiny part of the overall population. Or are you saying there are more Christians in the world, so more bad things are likely to happen to them?

“Prostelytising”? Were the school girls beheaded in Poso proselytising on their way to lessons? Did they bring that fate upon themselves? Were the parents of the Christian innocents slaughtered in Beslan guilty of inducing the demise of their children?

Church/state separation is fine. Are you saying that we westerners don't behead our friends and colleagues anymore because of this?

I do not deny that most of the criticism offered by non-believers in the spirituality forum is directed at xianity. I do not think this reflects that we have some agenda to mock and eliminate xianity. Rather it is a product of the large and vocal crowd of fundamentalist xians here. We here at RHP have been endowed with more than our fair share of zealous evangelicals. The self-righteousness and arrogant manner in which they debate combined generally with far less knowledge invites scorn.

Fine- then you agree with my previous post, that you are essentially a political animal produced by your environment, that you see your behaviour as a reaction against the fundamentalist Christian element in (a)your society and/or (b) these forums.

But you do realise that the people you're criticising in this thread (e.g. Lucifer's Hammer and Ivan, and I suppose myself) have nothing to do with that element in (a) or (b). So if your gripe is with the Christian evangelical fundamentalist mob, then take it up with them. I often do, if I can be bothered to waste my breath.

My point was that I appreciate the reasons for your anti-Christian stance, and I have some sympathy for you, from what I gather goes on in the States, I can comprehend your reactionary position quite well. But what you see as Christianity, or the enemy to you, if you like, are a tiny bunch of extremists. There are lots of Christians in the world, and that group of loonies make up an infinitesimally small fraction of the whole. They don't consider the rest of the world to be Christians anyway, so why do you take them to be representative of the Faith. It makes no sense in the wider perspective.

As for attacks against xianity in the wider world, I'd again chalk it up to perception. I really don't think it's anything more than changing opinions in the society as a whole. Note that for any perceived media slam against xianity, I can find 10 slams against "liberals" and "secularists" on any one of the many US xian tv networks. For any piece of US legislation that permits behavior fundamentalist xians find unacceptable (e.g. homosexuality, abortion), I can show you 10 more pieces pushed by the Religious Right in the American South or Midwest.

Well, you might say that, but in the various media in this part of the world, it seems apparent that this is the case. I can give examples, but it would take too long, and would be futile, as I am sure that you will come back with example from the other side from your part of the world. This is an international question, but your country is unique, and seems to be a law unto itself. I suppose the difference I could point out is that the media as a whole can run stuff broadly offensive to people of the Faith, but you cite Christian networks, whatever they might be, as examples on the other side, not CNN or the New York Post. I presume these networks cater to a certain audience, if you follow me. Anyway..

Many of us do argue strongly against fundamentalist xianity here. How else should we respond in the face of fallacy and err than with reason and knowledge? I've found that many of us are not so "staunch" in our beliefs are you perceive. The very path that led us to freethought or skepticism, led us also to being open-minded and self-critical. Many of us promote the freedom of individuals to think what they please and worship as they wish. We tend to be promote the liberties of individuals in contrast to the authoritarian pursuits of fundamentalists. Remember though that open-mindedness is not the personal acceptance of every position, but rather the willingness to consider any position. If a position has been shown to be unreasonable, than we are perfectly justified in rejecting it personally. In general, I think we are a rather inquisitive and curious lot. As for myself, since rejecting my previous beliefs and acknowledging my non-theistic (i.e. atheistic) worldview, I have lived a more fulfilling life, so thanks for your concern but I'll maintain my "predicament."


I didn't get all of that, but I will say this. I doubt you lack the “scepticism” (sic), and self-analytical qualities you claim to possess. My point is that is combating fundamentalism and extremism of far right sects in the States, your group of anti-Christian liberals or atheists or free-thinkers, or whatever you wish to be called, has become fundamentalist and extremist in your anti-Christian bigotry. There is no logical difference between the two groups.

Now, you misunderstand me- your predicament was not your God-less existence (I really think you have the wrong end of the stick), but rather your political climate. That's what I intended.

Finally, where in my last post did I box you in as a fundamentalist? Do not twist my words. I only claimed that you're a xian. Is this not correct? I'm also noticing that your reactionary behavior here runs counter to the moderate leanings you profess. Do you think it is possible that your views are not so mainstream and moderate, but rather that you are assuming the approval of the majority without merit?

Certainly, anything is possible. I could be (probably, nay certainly am) more pronounced in my views on all matters than is the norm, the status quo, or the will of the majority on most issues. Did I claim to possess the qualities of clemency and temperance? If I gave the impression that I am on the road to canonisation, then it was fallacious. Again, you misunderstand my point. I do not think you have mistaken me for a fundy Evangelical lunatic. But I draw your attention to the fact that the world is not made up of them and you. As to my beliefs, personally I consider such matters rather private, and not the stuff of public forums. Note I do not discuss them anywhere here.

But let's just say I were just like you for a moment- an atheist- the difference I would make would be that a lack of faith would certainly not cause me to deny my heritage and culture. Can you say the same?

Well I guess we should call it happy hajmaskwanacha to you all then.

Originally posted by stoker
did hear some note of the P.C. CROWD saying firms should not put up xmas decorations as not to offend other faiths fine in principle but my local curry takeaway which is run by other faiths put them up every year.

That's because they're trying to kiss customer butt.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
That's not what he's saying at all. He's making the point that the people who are usually cited as being offended by "Merry Christmas" (as opposed to "Happy Holidays" etc.) - Jews, Muslims and people of other faiths - are in fact [b]not offended by such a greeting. His point is that this oft-cited myth is exactly that - a myth.[/b]

No, his point is

It is plainly ridiculous to write "Happy Holidays" or "Seasons' Greetings" on cards, so as not to mention Christmas. It is even more ludicrous to wish somebody a Happy X-mas

The guy thinks I am ridiculous because I'm not PC enough to deceptively mention a religious holy day for a religion I don't practice.