Who's the most impressive Christian you've met

Originally posted by ivanhoe

Why don't we leave Jesus Christ and what you believe He wants out of this for a change.

Why don't you analyse the whole situation on the forums instead of defending foulmouth Bbarr and his bullying friends and stop attacking and critisising me for not doing what you believe God wants. Please leave God out of this.

Originally posted by pcaspian
Originally posted by huntingbear
[b]There is a huge difference between bbarr and ivanhoe: bbarr doesn't bear the name of Christ. He is not a follower of Jesus, and I have no reasonable expectation that he will obey Him.

The issue I have is that in our conversations you defend BBarr. That is acceptable, however if you befriend someone you ta ...[text shortened]... as I've already stated. Shake the dust off your feet, for you need to assess His will.

pc
[/b]

Originally posted by KellyJay
Being a Christian does not mean I have to accept everything said
and done by someone who claims they have the same faith I have.
Sometimes non Christians are right, and Christians are wrong, with
me being the Christian in the wrong.

I agree with huntingbear, those that carry Jesus’ name should be
attempting to actually walk the way Jesus asks us too. ...[text shortened]... at another’s bad behavior, why did Jesus
have to die for us, where is the repentance?
Kelly

I wish to thank you all. After twelve pages, my name has hardly been mentioned, and then only in passing. I take this as a tremendous compliment to the success of my ideals.

You know, this is a real sign of the times for me. I remember when I used to be the "etremist Christian fundie" around here (and mind you, my views have not changed much in the past two years. So little, I doubt anyone from the old days notices the difference). Nonetheless, here I stand, the same as always, posting the same as always, and hardly a mention of me in here. This amuses me to no end.

Anyway, who is the most impressive Christian I've met here? I honestly can not say. There are number of fine people here that all have some great qualities to them, whos impressiveness is equaled only by the inability to get along.

Pax Vobiscum,

Deus Ex Machina

Originally posted by pcaspian
Why God chooses some and not others I do not know. I've yet however to see God choose those that curse His name.

I was once a blasphemer as bad as any on this site. God can and does forgive those who curse His name, and I am living proof. If you want more, just remember that all those who do not curse Him with words, nonetheless curse Him with deeds. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23 NIV)
If God can forgive you, He can forgive anyone. Is that not so?

If this man walks into church blaspheming God, disrupting the church service, do you believe God still expects us to restrain ourselves ?

Yes.

Do you believe Jesus was justified in chasing out the merchants in church precisely because he was Jesus, or would this right be extended to all Christians ?

I have said before that I am prepared to allow the Lord lattitude which He does not allow me. Besides, there's no indication in John 2:15 that the whip actually struck a human being. In any case, it is an elementary principle of Biblical interpretation that difficult passages be interpreted in light of plain ones. Your frequent appeal to the cleansing of the Temple in order to justify rudeness in the forums violates this principle.

I believe the idea of mistaking Christianity for passifism was introduced to me in the 'Screwtape' letters. C.S.Lewis was writing about how some maintained that Britain should not have gone to war against Germany.

I understand all that. What is confusing to me is why you think I mistake Christianity for pacifism. You should note that Lewis never suggests pacifism is wrong. He says only that to embrace Christianity because you are a pacifist is getting the cart before the horse. Lewis does not say one word against a sincere Christian regarding pacifism as his duty. All that aside, I still don't know it has to do with me.

Whilst I clearly see you as a Christian, I see your stance on passifism rather strong

I can only repeat that this is an unwarranted conclusion. There is no reason to think that, because I believe Christians should be polite and respectful in the forums, I therefore am a pacifist.

What you haven't yet explained is who you would consider this applies to “Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.”. For me, that would certainly include people who blaspheme against God. Thus I am asking whether you believe we should preach to people that not only reject God, but curse His name ? Simply put, Jesus must have been speaking about a certain group of people, who would you consider this to be ?

I can only repeat that I, too, was once a blasphemer. If we think we ought not to preach to any enemy of God, then we have no more people to whom to preach. As it pertains to Bennett, he has never yet disrespected the gospel message when I have expressed it to him. Remember the example of my mother-in-law's grandfather? His wife tried for years to badger him into Christianity. Only when his son-in-law witnessed to him in a calm and respectful way did he begin to consider the gospel. The point is that, while he may not have responded to his wife's nagging, that did not mean he was completely closed to the gospel. I think you are in danger of mistaking, say, your presentation of the gospel for the gospel itself. If someone closes their ears to you, or to ivanhoe, or to Darfius, or RBHill, that does not necessarily mean that they are unreachable. Maybe they're just unreachable to you. If someone turns and rends a Christian because that Christian is rude and hostile, then the Christian is only getting what he asked for, and he has no right to claim that he was rent for the gospel's sake, or that the gospel itself was trampled.

Ok, but you need to incorporate this view into the point I made above. Unless you interpret the verse differently, it certainly does seem to suggest that we should keep what is Holy, Holy and not have Jesus's name dragged through mud.

This is exactly what I have been saying through this entire thread. How many times have I said it? I believe an inexcusable proportion of the blasphemy on this web site is a reaction to the rude and inexcusable behavior of Christians. It is exactly because it causes Christ's name to be dragged through the mud (as well as the fact that it's childish and rude) that I protest against Christians using obscenity and behaving in a hostile manner. Keeping Jesus' name holy does not mean using obscenities against non-Christians. It means representing Him in a holy way by living a holy life. Holy means set apart. We do not fight fire with fire. We set ourselves apart, because we are set apart by God, to live not according to this world, but according to His Spirit. Bickering, insulting, and cursing non-Christians, no matter how rude they are, is disobedience to the Lord Jesus Christ and results in the profanation of His name. Have you any fear of the account we will have to make before God on this point? I do.

He said this yesterday. He's clearly been annoying you for a long time however. I've little doubt Ivan would respond to you in kind should you offer the sincere message of brotherhood in Christ.

I have always been sincere with ivanhoe, and always addressed him out of love and concern. I did so in my first post in this thread, and I did so on at least one previous occasion in the forums when I confronted him about his rudeness. That time, he agreed with me that he should be polite and respectful, and repented of his anger and malice. But recently he has been even more obscene and hostile, and now refuses to consider the place God has in his behavior in the forums. I pray for him.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
That's why I say to you "Leave God out of this".

Originally posted by huntingbear
Never.

If I am abusing Scripture, then it is your duty as a Christian to point out where and how. What passage have I twisted to my own ends? What does the Scripture mean when it tells us to put away foul language from ourselves? Am I attempting to intimidate you, or am I asking you to obey Jesus? I never tried to do anything but point out what God's ...[text shortened]... in the name of Christ: correct me if I have misused God's Word.

I will never leave God out.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
I will determine myself, obeying my conscience, what my duties as a Christian are.

If God can forgive you, He can forgive anyone. Is that not so?

I have little doubt God can forgive anyone, for Jesus died so that we all may have a chance at salvation. My argument, a scriptural argument remains that we should not preach to those that choose not to hear. Matthew 10 vs 5-16

I have said before that I am prepared to allow the Lord lattitude which He does not allow me. Besides, there's no indication in John 2:15 that the whip actually struck a human being Your frequent appeal to the cleansing of the Temple in order to justify rudeness in the forums violates this principle.

I don’t actually condone violence to those that do not choose to accept Christ. I believe Jesus to have been under the same laws as any man was when Jesus walked the earth. I don’t believe Jesus had special authority to act in a way which would constitute sin for any other mortal man, for Jesus as a man, committed no sin. As such I believe any Christian is entitled to protect his faith from someone attempting to destroy that.

Lets take the following example. You believe it is your duty to protect your family (as scripture dictates). You also believe you should turn the other cheek should your brother hit you. Now how far does this go ? Take the following example:
1.A man breaks into your house. You are single .He kills you without you putting up a fight.
2.A man breaks into your house. You live with your wife. You kill him.
3.A man breaks into your house while you are away. Instead of your wife defending herself, the man kills her.

Does this make sense ? Why are you allowed to defend your wife, but your wife is not allowed to defend herself ? A short answer to this may be found at http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/cheek.htm, however I’ve yet to make up my mind.

I can only repeat that I, too, was once a blasphemer. If we think we ought not to preach to any enemy of God, then we have no more people to whom to preach. As it pertains to Bennett, he has never yet disrespected the gospel message when I have expressed it to him. Remember the example of my mother-in-law's grandfather? His wife tried for years to badger him into Christianity. Only when his son-in-law witnessed to him in a calm and respectful way did he begin to consider the gospel. The point is that, while he may not have responded to his wife's nagging, that did not mean he was completely closed to the gospel.

By this statement however, you seem to be suggest blaim on Christians when someone is not listening to them. The Bible clearly tells us that there will exists those that do not wish to hear the gospel

If we look at Matthew 10 vs 5-16, two verses stand out for me.

11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.

14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Firstly, the disciple is to enquire who is worthy, before visiting that house. If they do not receive you or your words, God’s wrath is upon them. This passage certainly apply to how we are to spread the Gospel, not randomly, not giving that which is Holy to the dogs. Put this way, no man is out of reach of God, but God does not expect or advise us to preach to those that disrespect or blaspheme His name. Of course, treat those with love, pray for your enemy, but do not waste time you can spend on those that are willing to hear on a person that you want to be saved. I’ve little doubt your mother in law prayed for the salvation of her husband, primarily because he is her husband and God answered, I do not however believe she should have continually preached to him. To him, her example as a Christian was the best she could do.

If someone turns and rends a Christian because that Christian is rude and hostile, then the Christian is only getting what he asked for, and he has no right to claim that he was rent for the gospel's sake, or that the gospel itself was trampled.

I agree, and as I state if a person is not receptive to the message of God, then we should not continue to preach to them. The problem however in a forum such as this is that it is an unnatural environment. Should a Christian enter a house where everyone but one person is receptive to his/her message and that one person is disrupting his attempt to preach to those that are willing to listen to him, what is the solution, stop preaching to those that want to hear because of one man that will not keep quiet ? I don’t believe Ivan is particularly concerned with converting Bennet or any other athiest, and I certainly know my motiv for discussing my faith has never been to convince an athiest otherwise, merely to respresent what I believe to be the true Gospel. This I do so that an onlooker can hear what I have to say, perhaps find some wisdom in God’s words. A merchant in the church that day may well have considered Jesus hostile towards him. Jesus was the opitomy of passifism, loving even the enemy, but his first and foremost love was God. He would not tolerate someone disrespecting God in His own house. These forums are not the house of God however.

This is exactly what I have been saying through this entire thread. How many times have I said it? I believe an inexcusable proportion of the blasphemy on this web site is a reaction to the rude and inexcusable behavior of Christians. It is exactly because it causes Christ's name to be dragged through the mud (as well as the fact that it's childish and rude) that I protest against Christians using obscenity and behaving in a hostile manner. Keeping Jesus' name holy does not mean using obscenities against non-Christians. It means representing Him in a holy way by living a holy life.

HuntingBear, the verse does not refer to ‘us’ dragging Jesus’s name through the mud, but ‘them’. “Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.”

I agree with you, Christians should set the example and we haven’t. The verse however refers to ‘them’ trampling and turning against you. This fits in with the instructions given in Mat 10 vs 11 1 “And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.

I believe the problem is that we should not be preaching in a forum where we are going to be angered on a daily basis, where God’s name will not be respected, but mocked, and where people do not wish to hear our message. This would not be a problem on a Christian forum, or any forum where any such antagonistic posts would be strictly moderated, such that if there exists 1 person out of 10 that purposefully atttempt to dislodge a person from preaching, they will be removed, so that the rest can listen in peace. I believe us preaching at RHP where we cannot be granted this luxury is wrong. There is not a single Christian that posts on this forum that has not managed to ‘post in anger’. You’ve removed yourself from from this position (much as I will) so you do not have to be angered by this. If you believe you are now immune to this, not able to be angered, fine, but I don’t believe you are. Should you return to actively posting at RHP, I think even you would anger and create posts you would regret at a later point. I don’t believe that is our calling. our mission, to hear God’s name blasphemed day after day by the same people, so we can discuss the Gospel with those unworthy.

If you speak to a person regarding God, and they reject you, do you continue to preach your message to that same person, or do you move on to those that actually want to hear your message ? What do the scriptures say ?

But recently he has been even more obscene and hostile, and now refuses to consider the place God has in his behavior in the forums. I pray for him.

Yes I know. Ivan by his own admission has admitted to losing his cool and I too have in private discussed this with him many times, in love for a fellow Christian, a Christian so passionate about his faith that it gets the better of him sometimes. Was Paul not passionate about God ? So much so that he killed those He considered against God ? Yes he was wrong, but God saw the love for God in Paul’s heart. God did not condemn Paul, he did not hand Paul over to the Gentiles to pay for his transgressions, He converted Paul.

I do not disagree with you in many of your points. I do agree with you that we should not retaliate in kind to those we are preaching to, but I disagree with you that we should be tolerant of those that purposefully sabotage our attempt to talk to others about the Gospel. Any attacks on us personally , let us turn the other cheek. Any attempts however to prevent others from reaching salvation, I can’t agree with. The forums are tricky and if we attempt to convert a person, then yes, do not return anger, but what you may have noticed if you frequent the forums is constant forum hi-jacking. Try read just a single one of RBHill’s bible studies and you’ll notice a trend.

pc

Originally posted by pcaspian
...but what you may have noticed if you frequent the forums is constant forum hi-jacking. Try read just a single one of RBHill’s bible studies and you’ll notice a trend.

Originally posted by Nemesio
How about you let the dictates of your faith, as described by the Bible and Tradition,
determine what your duties as a Christian are?

As such, being rebuked with appropriate Biblical passages -- even if quoted by a
heathen -- should effect a change.

Nemesio

Huntingbear to Pcaspian: " But recently he (me. IvanH) has been even more obscene and hostile, and now refuses to consider the place God has in his behavior in the forums."

.... and now refuses to consider the place God has in his behavior in the forums.

I do not refuse to consider this.
Huntingbear, you still don't understand when I say "Let's leave God out of this".

Originally posted by ivanhoe
You are also someone who uses the Word of God to manipulate others into obedience to you and your ilk, your numerous chimp fights are witnesses to that. You also (mis)use God or Jesus or the Word of God, Scripture quotes, in trying to get your opponents in the corner you want them to be in ..... and I am not talking about debates discussing Scripture-interp ...[text shortened]... ... ? because I don't know who and what you are, because you decided to keep that a secret.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
You are also someone who uses the Word of God to manipulate others into obedience to you and your ilk, your numerous chimp fights are witnesses to that. You also (mis)use God or Jesus or the Word of God, Scripture quotes, in trying to get your opponents in the corner you want them to be in.

Originally posted by Nemesio
It's usually the case that, when I decide to use the 'Word of God,' it's because so-called
Christians are misusing it in the first place. My 'chimp fights,' as you call them, are in
fact not fights, because I do not benefit from them. They are exposés; they reveal the
inherent hypocrisy and internal contradiction of people with flawed religious pe ...[text shortened]... om the bondage of blind-faith and onto their journey into contemplative spirituality.

Nemesio