Originally posted by pcaspianI never wanted to preach or proselytise. I never use Bible quotes in political or religious discussions to prove I'm right, unless of course the quotes are the subject of debate. I never use Bible quotes or what Jesus would have wanted in a debate to try to silence or to tame people. If people think I did, please provide the written evidence. What I always wanted is to discuss issues, taking stances, defend positions, in order to understand things better. It is becoming increasingly impossible because of a number of sabotaging gossipping bigots, the Wolfpack, who dare to preach Freedom of Speech and Tolerance.
Originally posted by ivanhoe
[b]Huntingbear: "Why don't I discuss things on RHP much? Sometimes, it just makes me sick."
....... Why Huntingbear, do you think I had to puke yesterday ?
..... and you don't even particip ...[text shortened]... yo faith at the forums here. Who's will are you doing ?
pc
That is the issue I want to adress.
Originally posted by ivanhoeI would like to extend the hand of friendship to help bridge the gap between the gossippers and the rest.
I never wanted to preach or proselytise. I never use Bible quotes in political or religious discussions to prove I'm right, unless of course the quotes are the subject of debate. I never use Bible quotes or what Jesus would have wanted in ...[text shortened]... of Speech and Tolerance.
That is the issue I want to adress.
First, I will share a rumor that has been circling in the deepest tunnels and most secret circles of the Wolfpack. Most pack members, even, are unaware of it, but as a gesture of reconciliation I will share it with you. It is this: it is rumored that in real life, you were or are a Catholic Priest.
There, I have shared being, guaranteed of nothing in return but scorn from you and my bretheren.
Would you find it in your heart to return the favor and answer truthfully whether there is any truth to the rumor? Let us end gossip together by resolving this in the open.
Dr. S
Originally posted by huntingbear
There is a huge difference between bbarr and ivanhoe: bbarr doesn't bear the name of Christ. He is not a follower of Jesus, and I have no reasonable expectation that he will obey Him.
The issue I have is that in our conversations you defend BBarr. That is acceptable, however if you befriend someone you take the responsibility of ensuring their behaviour is not hurtfull to those around you. Imagine one of the Israelites befriending Goliath, or one of Jesus's disciples befriending Jesus's executioners. For that I will refer you back to my example regarding your family. You love your children and wife to bits I am sure ? Would you attitude and friendship towards BBarr remain should the object of his ridicule be your own family instead of Jesus ? Could you see David befriend an person that ridicules God ? Not a chance. Even the man who attempted to kill him on many occasions, Saul, he refused to kill, simply because Saul was made king by God. Had your wife a friend who constantly disrespected you infront of her, how do you believe you would feel ? I am trying to give you my (and possibly Ivan's point of view). I can be open about this to you precisely because I respect you as a Christian open to criticism.
As for forums, if we are going to post and frequent the forums, is it fair that the only Christian posters rebuking others end up being Ivan and Darfius or RBHilll ? What you are saying is true, BBarr is not a Christian, however Nemesio and Kirksey claim to be such. I've yet however to hear any support of Ivan in any such debates on RHP. Of course I completely understand if you don't want to frequent the forums due to limited time, or even if you don't like putting yourself in a situation where you are angered. Heck, I am leaving in a week or two, so I'd be in a similar boat as yourself. From Ivan's point of view however, he sees you as a Christian, however he never hears you support the views he knows you support or disaprove views he knows you disaprove, in deed the only time you seem to be vocal is when you rebuke him for his behaviour. Had you told me that you actively support Ivan in his quest for advocating moral values through PM's I could understand your view, however from what I understand from Ivan is that the only time he hears your opinion in RHP anymore is when you criticise him.
. I recall PM'ing you regarding this issue and stating that such a thing should be a private matter, however you felt this should be public. Fine, but this is like ostricising a Christian from both sides. If you were however to actively discuss and air your views regarding your faith, actively supporting Ivan's posts and rejecting them when appropriate, I don't believe he woudl have a problem with criticism, for that is exactly what I do when I believe he is in the wrong.
bbarr knows exactly where I stand on certain moral issues. You and ivanhoe are simply wrong when you say that I will not make a stand for Christ. I make one every single time I decide to obey the Lord rather than to gratify my own emotions in a display of anger and hate.
You can defend your faith through posts that are neither made in anger or hate. Just like you I've composed many a thread that I've simply deleted. Lol, I pay relaxing music or take a bubble bath inbetween posts!
I don't believe however that you're putting yourself in Ivan's shoes. He's the one in the firing line all the time, receiving no support from you. It is not fair to then only air your views when you believe he does wrong.
Whatever you are filled up with is what spills out when you're jostled. How much of the Holy Spirit has spilled out in this thread?
I don't believe the Holy Spirit would be present in these threads ever. What has happenned, read in these forums, have served a purpose, but very possibly to educate no-one other than a few Christians to not discuss their faith with those who already reject God. Even the athiests agreed, they did not want to hear the message. So fine, we create a Spiritual forum, but nothing has changed, its the same athiests that choose to frequent these forums, who simply do not care to hear any preaching merely air their grievances with God whereever they can. I don't feel any pity and remorse over these folk, perhaps I should. For me however these are merely the Philistines jeering the Israelites about their God. If they don't want to hear, don't preach to them. This applies to all Christians on RHP as I've already stated. Shake the dust off your feet, for you need to assess His will.
pc
Originally posted by pcaspian
Originally posted by huntingbear
[b]There is a huge difference between bbarr and ivanhoe: bbarr doesn't bear the name of Christ. He is not a follower of Jesus, and I have no reasonable expectation that he will obey Him.
The issue I have is that in our conversations you defend BBarr. That is acceptable, however if you befriend someone you ta ...[text shortened]... as I've already stated. Shake the dust off your feet, for you need to assess His will.
pc
[/b]
Hear, hear.
Originally posted by ivanhoe
I never wanted to preach or proselytise. I never use Bible quotes in political or religious discussions to prove I'm right, unless of course the quotes are the subject of debate. I never use Bible quotes or what Jesus would have wanted in a debate to try to silence or to tame people. If people think I did, please provide the written evidence. What I always wanted is to discuss issues, taking stances, defend positions, in order to understand things better. It is becoming increasingly impossible because of a number of sabotaging gossipping bigots, the Wolfpack, who dare to preach Freedom of Speech and Tolerance.
That is the issue I want to adress.
Ivan, if you are to take this view you will need to entirely remove God from your sense of ethics. There will be no point in involving God in any debate. For this I ask you why ? Why would you want to discuss and debate moral values when God is removed ? I honestly couldn't care less about morals should God be removed from the equasion. What, you want to quantify your moral values based on certain properties you attribute or value ? We both had the same issue with BBarr's definition of personhood and rejected these.I respect the human organism, he doesn't. You respect an infant as a person, the infanticide philosopher you mentioned simply didn't consider an infant a person. We reject accurate model for ethics without God, so why would you want to exlcude God from debates ? If you were to convince me that these forums serve as a training ground for public debates you perform in the Netherlands, then yes, I can undestand, but from a purpose of educating athiests at RHP, they serve little purpose other than to turn athiests against you.
Ok, so you have like 5 or 6 people actively plotting against you. A few of these even claim to be Christians. See I fully support you in this belief and I know the motive is the get you angry and frustrated. At what point however are you going to say 'enough is enough' ? You don't lose by turning your back and you certainly don't win by having athiests like you yet still not find God. Can you effectively convert your passion for God into preaching or is it better served debating issues at a forum you know won't provide that platform ?
pc
Originally posted by pcaspianThere is respect for religious beliefs, but not for disrespectful expressions of dogma.
Are we on a Christian forum where we can discuss out faith with athiests without having to endure them riduculing God all the time ? No. We're on a forum where anything goes, eventhough you would expect atleast some form of respect for religious beliefs.
Thank you, pcaspian, for some well-thought out posts in the past few hours. As long as your posts continue in this manner, my disagreements with you will show respect. (If I were a paying member, I'd give your response to Ivanhoe a rec.)
Originally posted by Wulebgr
There is respect for religious beliefs, but not for disrespectful expressions of dogma.
Thank you, pcaspian, for some well-thought out posts in the past few hours. As long as your posts continue in this manner, my disagreements with you will show respect. (If I were a paying member, I'd give your response to Ivanhoe a rec.)
Well, the difference to me atleast is that I respect any person's belief, whether they are a Nazi, paedophile, or racist. Everyone has an opinion and a belief based on some form of social conditioning, so to react to insult simply because someone has a different belief to your own, or even if you consider their belief as disgusting, is wrong. For that reason I respect a jew, hindu, or muslem for their views, eventhough I don't agree with those. That would include refraining from mocking their God/s, family, or traditions irrespective of how rediculous I believe those to be.
Antagonising a person to achieve your goal is in my opinion a weakness. It is a sign to indicate that your view is not strong enough and the only way you can win is by angering them. Unfortunitely for Ivan and myself, when our God is compared to a fetus precisely for the purpose of being a 'cutting insult' and the response from the authorities is miniscule, one needs to decide whether to continue to be subjected to such abuse or move on.
pc
Originally posted by pcaspianWhat I want is that people stop using God, what they think He wants and what His Word says to manipulate people and get them in line. I want them to stop (mis)using God in our or their personal fights. That's why I say leave God out of this.
Originally posted by ivanhoe
[b] I never wanted to preach or proselytise. I never use Bible quotes in political or religious discussions to prove I'm right, unless of course the quotes are the subject of debate. I never use Bible ...[text shortened]... issues at a forum you know won't provide that platform ?
pc
Of course God and His teachings cannot be excluded from my thinking looking at the situation. However what I want and what I claim this situation to be is what I want and what I claim it to be, NOT what God wants and NOT what God claims it to be. I do not speak on behalf of God. That's why I do not use Bible quotes to support anything I am saying, claiming or defending. Of course unless interpreting certain parts of His Word is the very issue at hand.
Originally posted by pcaspianPlease explain how your "respect for other's beliefs" is compatible with your calls for the banning of people who don't agree with you.
[b/]Originally posted by Wulebgr
There is respect for religious beliefs, but not for disrespectful expressions of dogma.
Thank you, pcaspian, for some well-thought out posts in the past few hours. As long as your posts continue ...[text shortened]... ether to continue to be subjected to such abuse or move on.
pc
Originally posted by no1marauder
Please explain how your "respect for other's beliefs" is compatible with your calls for the banning of people who don't agree with you.
Well no1, perhaps this is the problem I have.
Lets analyse your question.
You are stating that I called for the banning of people that don't agree with me. Whether you are simply being symantically 'lazy' or just insincere or sarcastic, I don't know, but you are actually implying that I call for the banning of anyone that I disagree with.
This would imply that I call for (or have called for) the banning of someone who stated "I don't believe God exists". Needless to say this is false.
Ok, its 19:10 on a saturday evening and I would really prefer not to spend the rest of the day infront of my computer. Thus I ask whether you have a legitimate and sincere question to ask me (if so please do), or rather if you're trying to insinuate something in the shape of a question.
Needless to say I'm sure you also have better things to do with your Saturday everning, so if you would like me to simple give examples of behaviours that I consider disrespectfull , I can do that.
cheers
Originally posted by ivanhoe
Of course God and His teachings cannot be excluded from my thinking looking at the situation. However what I want and what I claim this situation to be is what I want and what I claim it to be, NOT what God wants and NOT what God claims it to be. I do not speak on behalf of God. That's why I do not use Bible quotes to support anything I am saying, claiming or defending. Of course unless interpreting certain parts of His Word is the very issue at hand.
Ok Ivan so you have two options.
You can either debate issues not related to Christianity, but have people make remarks that are purepusefully offensive, or you can enter debates regarding scriptures where we know people will make remarks that are purposefully offensive. You also know the same people that state one thing at RHP will state another in FW precisely to get you angry at them and then pretend to be 'holier than thou' prophets at RHP.
You also know that that RHP will not ban anyone here for making vulgar references to Jesus or God, irrespective of their intent or purpose. So you can choose to continue debate at RHP, especially scriptures, knowing full well that God and Jesus will regularly be mocked and your faith ridiculed.
I am sorry, but with regard to scriptures, I truely don't see any good you would be doing at RHP and in deed you should be shaking the dust off your feet.
As for any other debate, I have little doubt the odd religious insult will continue primarily to annoy you, but you will still deal with the other insults e.g. Shooting head of lettuce. Fine, provided you're in the majority these will be banned however unless RHP change their stance the posters will remain and post the same material over and over. If you're happy with the status of the forums, no problem, but as I know you are not, you 're left with a dilemma. Do you really enjoy debating here ? You're alerts of thread hi-jacking have fallen on deaf ears, nothing has been done about it, nothing will be done about it. So, you need to decide what benefit you receive from debate in the forums, keeping in mind that you will be continuously taunted, ridiculed, ganged up against and belittled, irrespective of whether you are winning or losing the debate. Thus I ask, what purpose does this serve ? Do you feel like a myrtyr, do you believe you're doing God's work by advocating moral values ?
Make no mistake we need people like you to stand up for moral values everywhere. Had more people stood up against the Nazi rule, many lives could have been saved, but I don't see that serving a purpose here. What I do care about if your well being and having been an a few forums in the last 5 years I know spending many hours debating online can and is detrimental to your well being. Ever had a day where you said "Ok, 1 hour of RHP debate and then I do something else" ... and had this turn into 5 hours ? Heck, I've been up until 2am just because I believed I could get through to someone, only to fail miserably. This is why I am concerned that if I return 2 years from now I may still find you debating on this site, with the same arguments and opponents, achieving nothing.
I believe this is why Huntingbear does not debate on RHP anymore. Preaching serves no purpose and debating takes up too much time. For that reason alone I would suggest re-evaluating whether RHP is the right forum for you (and everyone else serious about debate) or whether even online forums is the right medium to debate. You simply need to assess the amount of time spent here over one week and see if you would like to spend that much time online. Compare the way you feel now, your relationship with God with that time you spend a week or two restricting your time spent at RHP.
I'm not knocking you Ivan, as you know we tend to agree on just about every moral issue, I merely question the use of debate.
pc
Originally posted by AynatThe title of this thread is indeed a nice one
[b]Forgive me for thread-jacking, but I much preferred the original query about the most impressive Christiam I have personally known.
lol they werent here last night!
dah dah dah dah dah dah dah dah ------BATMAN------- kapow....splatt!
Getting back to the original title......
The most impressive Christian I ever met, was my Aunt Kathleen, the very essence of her being was kindness......
She didnt have two halfpennies to rub together, lived her life in poverty, her children wore hand-me down clothes, Christimas a beautiful meal on the table, and yet....was the kindest person to her family friends and neighbours, in all her poverty, she had richness within her, and to this day, it still always lingers with me.....her kindness to all.....as I grew up enveloped in that, her home, although barren of any rich articles, was a refuge, a place of peace, a place as a child, rich in all that was needed.
She isnt alive today, she passed away at the age of 60 from cancer.....I missed her a lot
she didnt know.....how much she left me...
in the true spirit of Christianity
be kind to mankind......the message is simple....
gil
Four absurdities that I am obligated to point out:
Originally posted by pcaspian
Imagine one of the Israelites befriending Goliath, or one of Jesus's disciples befriending Jesus's executioners. For that I will refer you back to my example regarding your family. You love your children and wife to bits I am sure ? Would you attitude and friendship towards BBarr remain should the object of his ridicule be your own family instead of Jesus ?
Jesus taught, 'Love your enemies.' You are charged with befriending and loving Jesus's
executioners. You are charged with living a Christian life towards Bennett with no
expectation of reciprocation. A True Christian is not entitled to civility, decency, morality,
or any other such thing; a True Christian is expected to maintain a Christ-like attitude in the
face of incivility, indecency, immorality, insult, persecution, and so forth. To claim otherwise
is heretical.
What you are saying is true, BBarr is not a Christian, however Nemesio and Kirksey claim to be such.
I've made no such claim, and you know it.
I don't believe the Holy Spirit would be present in these threads ever.
Your lack of faith is disgusting from a self-avowed Christian. By definition, the Holy Spirit
is omnipresent, working through the words of those who type in faith. If you do not believe
that the Holy Spirit has 'ever' spoken through someone in these forums, then you are no
Christian yourself.
If they don't want to hear, don't preach to them. This applies to all Christians on RHP as I've already stated. Shake the dust off your feet, for you need to assess His will.
Shaking the dust of your feet and assessing God's will does not include the ranting, raving,
insulting, spitefulness, hatefulness, and bigotry that has marked the actions of the so-called
Christians in this forum. Jesus never acted the way that most of the Christians act
here, and, it is demonstrable that very few Christians strive to lead a Christ-like life. A True
Christian is always evaluating him/herself, always asking, 'Is this what Jesus would do
were He in my situation,' always praying for guidance from the Holy Spirit. If you believe
that Jesus was without sin, then he would be without anger or malice, without hate and insults,
without spite and vitriol. If you are a True Christian, you will use Jesus as your model. If
not, you will continue to act the way you have been acting.
Nemesio
Originally posted by pcaspianpcaspian, I think he was directing the question at me, rather than you. However, as I have not called for banning anyone (and I don't recall seeing you do so either), the question is no more than a flame--one that will flicker a moment, and then disappear.
Originally posted by no1marauder
[b]Please explain how your "respect for other's beliefs" is compatible with your calls for the banning of people who don't agree with you.
Well no1, perhaps this is the problem I have. ...[text shortened]... plying that I call for the banning of anyone that I disagree with.[/b]
I must confess that a few days ago Darfius and pcaspian were almost indistinguishable in my thoughts. This morning, the differences have become more than evident.
Like it or not, pcaspian, I'm adding you to the list of Christians at RHP that have impressed me. Your candor and honesty are refreshing, however much I continue to disagree with you.
Originally posted by pcaspianThat's your typical BS, pcaspian; the only people who you have called to be banned are ones who disagree with you, not ones who are "disrespectful". If the second criteria was what you were interested in, you surely would have campaigned for Ivanhoe's banning when he was calling people "Nazis", "Brown Trash" etc. etc. etc. in every other post. You have very selective criteria on who you want banned and NO ONE who agrees with your basic philosophical positions is included in your banning criteria. That is a fact and you know it. The fact that you only call for the banning of the more outspoken ones who disagree with you doesn't change the fact or make you less of a hypocrite for stating you "respect other's beliefs" when you are most interested in silencing them.
Originally posted by no1marauder
[b] Please explain how your "respect for other's beliefs" is compatible with your calls for the banning of people who don't agree with you.
Well no1, perhaps this is the problem I ...[text shortened]... at I consider disrespectfull , I can do that.
cheers
[/b]