@vivify saidI see you’re not producing exact quotes from Trump on those topics. Why is that?
https://www.npr.org/2019/01/10/683662691/where-does-illegal-immigration-mostly-occur-heres-what-the-data-tell-us
Most illegal immigration comes through *legal* checkpoints, not by Mexicans crossing dangerous rivers and deserts.
So try again.
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@pb1022 saidNo and no. Therefore, no eyewitness testimony. You could certainly have an eyewitness account, but the weight of evidence of such would be strongly influenced by the nature of the events detailed.
Are there records of court proceedings in the 1st century? Did they even have formal court proceedings attended by stenographers back then?
@avalanchethecat saidWell we disagree on whether the writings of someone who purports to be an eyewitness to an event can be considered eyewitness testimony when today’s standard for such testimony was obviously not in place back then.
No and no. Therefore, no eyewitness testimony.
I’m comfortable with that.
And I’m comfortable with that testimony being considered credible by the people of that time given what transpired in the wake of it.
@pb1022 saidYou are using the word 'testimony' incorrectly.
Well we disagree on whether the writings of someone who purports to be an eyewitness to an event can be considered eyewitness testimony when today’s standard for such testimony was obviously not in place back then.
I’m comfortable with that.
And I’m comfortable with that testimony being considered credible by the people of that time given what transpired in the wake of it.
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@pb1022 saidBingo. Jackpot. You're going to Disney World.
How is it illegal immigration if it comes through legal checkpoints?
And if security is lax or non-existent at legal checkpoints, obviously that would be the preferred route for anyone seeking to gain access to America.
If Trump cared about legal/illegal immigration, legal checkpoints, expiring Visas, etc., would be his focus. Given how expensive and impractical building a 2,000 mile long border would be, this is more symbolic to his racist base than actually useful.
Enough of Trump; the support he gets from white Christians after spouting horribly racist rhetoric (and even shouting out the Proud Boys during a televised debate, which are a white supremacist group) are just one example out countless ones highlighting extreme racism among white Christians.
Notice how you pretended not see where I mentioned Trump was supported by the KKK and by a high-ranking Klan member. This is the disgusting way white Christians accept vile racism; either by being like Chaney and relishing it or by pretending they saw nothing.
@vivify said<<If Trump cared about legal/illegal immigration, legal checkpoints, expiring Visas, etc., would be his focus.>>
Bingo. Jackpot. You're going to Disney World.
If Trump cared about legal/illegal immigration, legal checkpoints, expiring Visas, etc., would be his focus. Given how expensive and impractical building a 2,000 mile long border would be, this is more symbolic to his racist base than actually useful.
Enough of Trump; the support he gets from white Christians after spo ...[text shortened]... accept vile racism; either by being like Chaney and relishing it or by pretending they saw nothing.
As far as I know (and I’m pretty sure I’m right,) that was his focus and once security had been tightened (or enforced) at those checkpoints, he moved onto the wall.
<<Enough of Trump; the support he gets from white Christians after spouting horribly racist rhetoric (and even shouting at the Proud Boys during a televised debate, which are a white supremacist group) are just one example out countless ones highlighting extreme racism among white Christians.>>
I had asked to see the exact quotes Trump said and not the American media’s characterization of them. You didn’t provide them.
<<Notice how you pretended not see where I mentioned Trump was supported by the KKK and by high-ranking Klan member. This is the disgusting way white Christians accept vile racism; either by being like Chaney and relishing it or by pretending they saw nothing.>>
I didn’t pretend not to see it. Trump has no control over who endorses him.
If my memory’s correct, the head of CPUSA (Communist Party USA) endorsed Hillary Clinton’s presidential candidacy. Is Hillary Clinton now a communist?
@avalanchethecat saidOk, I’m not interested in arguing semantics.
You are using the word 'testimony' incorrectly.
Call it “statements by eyewitnesses.”
I think they were vetted at the time and are credible given all the events that transpired after them. You don’t.
I’m comfortable leaving it there.
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@pb1022 saidThey are not 'statements'. They are accounts. And there are good grounds to doubt that the accounts to which you refer were made by the witnesses to whom they are ascribed. Further, the context and content of the accounts renders their value as historical accounts practically worthless.
Ok, I’m not interested in arguing semantics.
Call it “statements by eyewitnesses.”
I think they were vetted at the time and are credible given all the events that transpired after them. You don’t.
I’m comfortable leaving it there.
Edit: No, that is not true. Their value is of course inestimable and vast, but the weight of evidence must be considered practically nonexistent.
@pb1022 saidA) Fck Hillary, I hated her too, and my posting history in the debate forums has many posts showing this.
<<If Trump cared about legal/illegal immigration, legal checkpoints, expiring Visas, etc., would be his focus.>>
As far as I know (and I’m pretty sure I’m right,) that was his focus and once security had been tightened (or enforced) at those checkpoints, he moved onto the wall.
<<Enough of Trump; the support he gets from white Christians after spouting horribly racist rh ...[text shortened]... st Party USA) endorsed Hillary Clinton’s presidential candidacy. Is Hillary Clinton now a communist?
B) Defending Trump with "what about" is a loser tactic. It's only meant to deflect an argument elsewhere.
C) David Duke said his voters are also Trump's voters
https://www.npr.org/2016/11/02/500352353/kkk-paper-endorses-trump-campaign-calls-outlet-repulsive
When Morning Edition host Steve Inskeep asked Duke whether he thought "Trump voters are your voters," Duke replied, "Well of course they are. Because I represent the ideas of preserving this country and the heritage of this country, and I think Trump represents that as well."
Trump is racist and high-ranking KKK member David Duke, as shown by his quote, knows this.
More importantly, so do White Christians.
@avalanchethecat said<<They are not 'statements'.>>
They are not 'statements'. They are accounts. And there are good grounds to doubt that the accounts to which you refer were made by the witnesses to whom they are ascribed. Further, the context and content of the accounts renders their value as historical accounts practically worthless.
Edit: No, that is not true. Their value is of course inestimable and vast, but the weight of evidence must be considered practically nonexistent.
How are they not statements?
<<They are accounts.>>
Right. Accounts comprised of statements.
<<And there are good grounds to doubt that the accounts to which you refer were made by the witnesses to whom they are ascribed.>>
That’s your opinion and I disagree. What are these “good grounds?”
<<Further, the context and content of the accounts renders their value as historical accounts practically worthless.>>
Because they include miracles? You, as an atheist, have to believe in at least three miracles: Something came from nothing; life came from non-life; consciousness came from mindlessness. There’s a fourth miracle you have to believe but I can’t remember what is.
@vivify saidLike I said, Trump has no control over who endorses or supports him.
A) Fck Hillary, I hated her too, and my posting history in the debate forums has many posts showing this.
B) Defending Trump with "what about" is a loser tactic. It's only meant to deflect an argument elsewhere.
C) David Duke said his voters are also Trump's voters
https://www.npr.org/2016/11/02/500352353/kkk-paper-endorses-trump-campaign-calls-outlet-repulsive
[b ...[text shortened]... member David Duke, as shown by his quote, knows this.
More importantly, so do White Christians.
And if you’re going to continue to call Trump a racist, you should provide the exact quotes that lead you to believe that - and not the American media’s characterization of those quotes.
I notice you ignored Trump doing criminal justice reform, which largely benefited minorities, and his increasing and making permanent funding for historically black colleges and universities, which Biden reversed.
And you ignored Biden’s objection to desegregating schools and friendship with longtime Klan member Robert Byrd.
But I’m done arguing politics. Believe what you want about Trump and his supporters (and I’m not one of them.) I couldn’t care less.
@pb1022 saidIt's not my opinion, it's an objective assessment.
<<They are not 'statements'.>>
How are they not statements?
<<They are accounts.>>
Right. Accounts comprised of statements.
<<And there are good grounds to doubt that the accounts to which you refer were made by the witnesses to whom they are ascribed.>>
That’s your opinion and I disagree. What are these “good grounds?”
<<Further, the context and content of t ...[text shortened]... s came from mindlessness. There’s a fourth miracle you have to believe but I can’t remember what is.
https://thechurchoftruth.org/synoptic-gospels-not-writen-by-matt-mark-luke-or-john/
You don't know what my beliefs are regarding the origin of the universe, of life within the universe or of consciousness, so I'm not sure how you feel qualified to comment. I certainly don't believe in miracles because somebody once said they happened.
@avalanchethecat saidOk, I guess you can explain how life came from non-life and mindlessness came from consciousness and how something came from nothing (assuming you don’t believe the universe is eternal.)
It's not my opinion, it's an objective assessment.
https://thechurchoftruth.org/synoptic-gospels-not-writen-by-matt-mark-luke-or-john/
You don't know what my beliefs are regarding the origin of the universe, of life within the universe or of consciousness, so I'm not sure how you feel qualified to comment. I certainly don't believe in miracles because somebody once said they happened.
As far as the Gospels are concerned, I can just as easily produce sources that say they’re credible and trustworthy, but I’m not going down that rabbit hole. Let people who are interested do the research themselves.