Why Do You Think Jesus Wept ?

Originally posted by jaywill

I still think the best explanation for his crying is sadness at Lazarus' death.

All in the interest of a tighter story.

Don't you think it makes for a tight story that Jesus has to point out that the people's opinions are off ?

Marths, admits that she believes in a grand resurrection of all the dead at the end of time. Jesus h ONE was right there with Him in the truth. Even some were CLOSE but yet still so far off.

I know better than to try to convince you otherwise. I'm not singling you out in particular, I just think these kinds of beliefs are not amenable to change by some relative stranger posting text.

But the fact that he knows this should not be a reason to weep, IMO.

Originally posted by JS357
I know better than to try to convince you otherwise. I'm not singling you out in particular, I just think these kinds of beliefs are not amenable to change by some relative stranger posting text.

But the fact that he knows this should not be a reason to weep, IMO.

I know better than to try to convince you otherwise. I'm not singling you out in particular, I just think these kinds of beliefs are not amenable to change by some relative stranger posting text.

I liked your answer. And I don't think it is wrong or not the right answer. Perhaps at this juncture that is just what you SEE. Jesus cried because His friend died.

That's good. The divine attributes of God were shown in human virtues.

Sometimes read through and count the opinions expressed by everyone else in the chapter and how slightly OFF they were.

But the fact that he knows this should not be a reason to weep, IMO.

What a MAN, this Jesus .

Originally posted by jaywill

I know better than to try to convince you otherwise. I'm not singling you out in particular, I just think these kinds of beliefs are not amenable to change by some relative stranger posting text.

I liked your answer. And I don't think it is wrong or not the right answer. Perhaps at this juncture that is just what you SEE. Jesu ...[text shortened]... ws this should not be a reason to weep, IMO. [/quote]


What a MAN, this [b]Jesus .[/b]

I get that. It seems like what I expect Jesus the man and Jesus the god to do, in a given situation, differ, in part because the latter knows some things the former seems not to know. There are times when a reaction of Jesus' seems to indicate that something has not turned out the way he knew it would or expects or hopes it would, but Jesus as God should "expect" (foreknow) everything that happens, and should have every hope satisfied. It's a mystery to me.

Originally posted by JS357
I get that. It seems like what I expect Jesus the man and Jesus the god to do, in a given situation, differ, in part because the latter knows some things the former seems not to know. There are times when a reaction of Jesus' seems to indicate that something has not turned out the way he knew it would or expects or hopes it would, but Jesus as God should "exp reknow) everything that happens, and should have every hope satisfied. It's a mystery to me.

get that. It seems like what I expect Jesus the man and Jesus the god to do, in a given situation, differ, in part because the latter knows some things the former seems not to know. There are times when a reaction of Jesus' seems to indicate that something has not turned out the way he knew it would or expects or hopes it would, but Jesus as God should "expect" (foreknow) everything that happens, and should have every hope satisfied. It's a mystery to me.

It is a mystery to me also.

You are right.
Sometimes He seems surprised like any LIMITED man would be surprised.
Sometimes He marveled as a surprised man would marvel.

Some other times He knows that the donkey will be there tied up ready to be used. He displays foreknowledge. Sometimes He knew what was in a man's heart. At other times He marveled to find out.

He did the approrpriate thing that God wanted at the appropriate time as God wanted - to express limitation of a normal man or express omiscience of God.

This is why some of us insist Christ is the MINGLING of God and man. The mingling of the infinite with the finite. The mingling of Divinity with Humanity. The mingling of the unlimitted with the limited.

Such a Christ is available to know today and He mingles with His believers in a similar way.

Right Here - Right Here -

" As the living Father sent Me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also shall live because of Me." (John 6:57)

To EAT Him here means to take Him IN. He is available to be taken IN. He is in a form in which He can ENTER into a man's innermost being.

Originally posted by galveston75
Yes and Jesus actually wept on other occasions and was saddened many times for the conditions that mankind is suffering with our problems both mentally and physically. Rememeber he was there when his Father was creating man and Jesus was used in that creating and loved humans very much and that's the reason he offered himself to come to earth and eventua ...[text shortened]... sus told the man beside him when they were being executed: "You will be with me in paradise."

He said let Us create man in Our image and then man was then created in the
image of God.

Originally posted by JS357
Somebody said he cried because he saw the lack of faith in the people who were with Lazarus. (my wording)

Somebody said he stayed away a couple more days so his raising of Lazarus would be more glorified in their eyes. Does this include it would be more convincing?

So if he knew staying away just 2 days more than the travel time would be sufficient to gl ...[text shortened]... anation for his crying is sadness at Lazarus' death.

All in the interest of a tighter story.

I agree with your rational and you may be right that he cried at his death, I have no issue with Jesus feeling emotion.

However it should be balanced with his knowledge of and determination to do the Father's will. He deliberately stayed behind, it's in the text as I pointed out to Galveston.

He knew exactly what he was doing and why he was doing it. This does not preclude Jesus still feeling sad. He was human as well as God.

Originally posted by jaywill
He can ENTER into a man's innermost being.

Christ entering into someone demonstrates itself by a changed person. There are many Christians who claim to have accepted Christ, or baptised into Christ, or born again. Whatever the expression used the end result should be a changed person living a life in Christ and that means to follow the commandments of Christ.

Now you have spoken at length about Christ and his in dwelling and experiencing the triune God etc etc, Now how that translates into a changed person, you have never said. It is supposed to transform you into a new person following the commandments of Christ. Christ explained what that passage meant ..

Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Joh 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

Joh 6:63 ... the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

V 57 Christ said 'eat him'. V 61 he realised the disciples were confused by that statement. V63 he explained it ... Christ words [commandments] is what gives life. Eat Him means to follow his commandments. Follow his commandment and you will live.

And this is teaching of good works is central to all of Christs commandments, and all the apostles subsequently repeated the same thing.

Originally posted by RJHinds
He said let Us create man in Our image and then man was then created in the
image of God.

I don't believe this. I think it is a translation error.

Please give me the verse from the bible, and I will compare the same verse in bibles of other languages and other translators to see if the translation is the same everywhere.

If you can't, RJHinds, perhaps others can help me with this?

Originally posted by FabianFnas
I don't believe this. I think it is a translation error.

Please give me the verse from the bible, and I will compare the same verse in bibles of other languages and other translators to see if the translation is the same everywhere.

If you can't, RJHinds, perhaps others can help me with this?

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


Gen 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.


[KJV]

Originally posted by Rajk999
Christ entering into someone demonstrates itself by a changed person. There are many Christians who claim to have accepted Christ, or baptised into Christ, or born again. Whatever the expression used the end result should be a changed person living a life in Christ and that means to follow the commandments of Christ.

Now you have spoken at length about Ch ...[text shortened]... ral to all of Christs commandments, and all the apostles subsequently repeated the same thing.

Christ entering into someone demonstrates itself by a changed person.

To the world that is true. I have no argument with that.

There are many Christians who claim to have accepted Christ, or baptised into Christ, or born again. Whatever the expression used the end result should be a changed person living a life in Christ and that means to follow the commandments of Christ.

But there are also those who having begun in the Spirit are attempting, like the Galatians, to be perfected by the flesh.

Some people are just strong willed by nature. Then they believe into Christ. They may utlize their natural strong nature to "do what Jesus said". It may take some time for them to realize that they could simply be exercising their natural strength.

Then they learn more what it means - "Abide in Me and I in you" Yes. they once entered into Christ. But they have to set the mind on the regenerated spirit where the Spirit of Jesus is. They have to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the innerman.

Some people can grit there teeth and exercise a strong self will to "do what Jesus said". This eventually will be exposed as inadaquate and even offensive to God. We must abide in the realm of this One.

Being found in Him, not having our own righteousness which is by the law, but that which is through faith.

Ie. "Lord Jesus, I need YOU to be my faithfulness. I need YOU to be my endurance. Lord Jesus, I take YOU to be my love. I fear to just express my natural love here. I fear to simply use my natural wisdom. Lord I want to abide in You that You Yourself may be my wisdom."

In this way of constantly merging ourselves with the Christ living within, we abide in Him and He abides in us. We are not trying to be perfected in the flesh but in the Spirit.

Now you have spoken at length about Christ and his in dwelling and experiencing the triune God etc etc, Now how that translates into a changed person, you have never said. It is supposed to transform you into a new person following the commandments of Christ. Christ explained what that passage meant ..

He is a triune God. We are a tripartite being. The human spirit is the innermost kernel of our being. Christ comes into our spirit. Then through our abiding in Him and He in us He begins to migrate out into our soul. He begins to saturate and permeate our personality in our soul.

The more He moves out from our spirit into our soul the more we are transformed. We are transformed by Christ spreading our from our innermost being outward into the mind, emotion, and will - the soul.

Eventually even our bodies will be swallowed up in the divine life. Then from center to circumference Christ will saturate each part.

Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

Amen.

Joh 6:61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

Joh 6:63 ... the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

V 57 Christ said 'eat him'. V 61 he realised the disciples were confused by that statement. V63 he explained it ... Christ words [commandments] is what gives life. Eat Him means to follow his commandments. Follow his commandment and you will live.

To masticate the word of God is to "chew" it. But it is not only commandments. There is much much nourishing words of the Scripture. Sometimes in the form of commandments it comes. Sometimes in the form of vision, or poetry, or praise, ALOT in the form of praise.

All these utterances we should "eat". Do you spend time in the presence of the Lord Jesus simply to enjoy His presence ? You should come to Him many times just for HIMSELF.

It is not always to look for the commandment so you can DO for Him. Sometimes it is simply to bask in His presence and be saturated with Him. Then when we rise up we are abiding in Him spontaneously.

It is not always to look to see what the Lord wants you to DO in the form of a commandment. But it is often to behold and reflect the glory of the Lord for transformation (2 Cor. 3:17,18)

You linger in His presence. You have no particular COMMAND other than to love Him for His own sake. My beloved is altogether lovely. We love Him sometimes simply because of Who He IS.



That is an exceedingly way to eat Christ. To take in His word. To pray over His word. To pray His word and mix our prayer and praise with His word. So we eat the word in Spirit and we eat the Lord.

The word of Christ is really the whole Bible taken in spirit. And for certain the word of God brings our whole being into abiding in Christ when we exercise our spirit.


This is really a life long lesson.

And this is teaching of good works is central to all of Christs commandments, and all the apostles subsequently repeated the same thing.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and fe ...[text shortened]... h man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.


[KJV]

Thank you, Rajk999, I appreciate your effort.

And now I believe that the translation is according to the original document. I've compared it with every language I know how to differ we/us from other pronomes, and haven't found anything that leaves me in doubt of the correctness.

However, as a non-christian, I believe that ... but that's another story.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Thank you, Rajk999, I appreciate your effort.

And now I believe that the translation is according to the original document. I've compared it with every language I know how to differ we/us from other pronomes, and haven't found anything that leaves me in doubt of the correctness.

However, as a non-christian, I believe that ... but that's another story.

Cool. Thanks for your honesty.

As a non Christian .. if you have the time and interest, read the words of Christ and Paul. Forget about creationism, and the 'atrocities' committed by the early Jews. The words of Christ are for us.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Cool. Thanks for your honesty.

As a non Christian .. if you have the time and interest, read the words of Christ and Paul. Forget about creationism, and the 'atrocities' committed by the early Jews. The words of Christ are for us.

Well, I've read the bible since I was a small boy. But I learn quite quickly, that you are not welcome to ask questions if you don't dogmatically accept the answers. (I once asked why Gud is a man and not a woman, what difference would it be? They got ballistic and forced me to accept that He is a man. This made me think a lot what was right and what was wrong to believe.)

One author that changed me a lot is Karen Armstrong, who explains very well why christianity and its dogmas is what they appear to be. She is a better teacher than the bible itself can ever be.

My opinion is this that noone knows for sure what Christ really said and did. His words are written down 50 years after and by people who not met Christ at all. Paul wrote his letters with an agenda. The church at that time was very different of what it is today, and his words can only be read to understand the culture at that time. Creationism I don't give a rats about. We, with the aid of science, know much more now than at the time Genesis was written. Evolution is by far the greatest achivement in his creation of Univers, life, and everything - I would say as a Christian - which I am not.

But that is my opinion that I can defend elsewhere, but not want to defend in this thread.

Originally posted by RJHinds
He said let Us create man in Our image and then man was then created in the
image of God.

Yes so what's your point here?

Originally posted by jaywill
"Abide in Me and I in you"

I get the feeling that you are speaking of just sitting or lying down and meditating on Christ. Your approach appears to be very abstract and does not do justice to the spirit of the teachings of Christ. You said ..

"..Then they learn more what it means - "Abide in Me and I in you" Yes. they once entered into Christ. But they have to set the mind on the regenerated spirit where the Spirit of Jesus is. They have to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the innerman. .."

Much of your post is focused on 'SELF'. On the contrary Christ and Paul wrote along lines which focuses on being "SELFLESS". If you want some supporting passages about selflessness and charity and good works and how important they are to ones salvation I can produce dozens.

Now even the passage you quoted about 'ABIDE IN ME' is contradicting your interpretation. Here is the whole passage :

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
(John 15:1-10)

That entire passage is about bearing fruit, about following the commandments of Christ [chief of which is love your neighbour]. The consequences of NOT bearing fruit [doing good works] is destruction.