18 Jan 12
2 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999
I think you are still missing the point I am making. ABIDING IN CHRIST IS ABOUT WORKS. ITS NOT ABOUT CHANTING "I ABIDE IN CHRIST".
First, the Grace of God applies to all men. All people live and exist through the grace of God. You, me, Paul, atheists .. everybody. We all live through the grace of God. Even the gift of salvation through grace is for ALL m HIS COMMANDMENTS. IF YOU DONT FOLLOW CHRIST'S COMMANDMENTS YOU CANNOT ABIDE IN CHRIST.
I think you are still missing the point I am making. ABIDING IN CHRIST IS ABOUT WORKS. ITS NOT ABOUT CHANTING "I ABIDE IN CHRIST".
You seem to miss the point that I never said it was about "CHANTING "I ABIDE IN CHRIST" ". Quote me if I am mistaken.
First, the Grace of God applies to all men. All people live and exist through the grace of God. You, me, Paul, atheists .. everybody. We all live through the grace of God. Even the gift of salvation through grace is for ALL men, no exceptions.
This is according to somewhat limited definition that the grace of God is "unmerited favor". If you substitute the phrase "Unmerited Favor" in place of the word "grace" everywhere in the Bible, you might justify a position like that. Ie. "ALL ... human beings are under some Unmerited Favor just in view of the sun rising on them, the rain falling for them, the heart beating within them ... etc."
But that is not really the Grace of God which the NT usually is speaking of.
When Paul speaks of the grace of God that was with him he is speaking about something EVERY MAN does NOT have. It is not had by those who do NOT have Christ living in them. It the enjoyment of Christ enabling them and empowering them and being for them all things that they need.
Now I am not belittling the good favor of every man enjoying the blessings of God's creation, ie. His sunshine, His air, His water, His bestowing of good health, His blessing with material goods, etc. etc ... outward fortunate aspects of God maintaining our existence.
I do not belittle that or make it not significant. These are blessings from God.
But the grace with Paul is a PERSON, is a PERSON, is a living and available Person - God Himself in Christ living in Paul.
So because Jesus Christ is with the man's spirit the grace of Jesus Christ is with the man's spirit.
Compare:
" The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you" ( 2 Tim. 4:22)
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit" (Philemon 25)
Compare:
"The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you"
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit." (Philippioans 4:23)
Compare:
" The Spirit Himself witnesses with our spirit that we are the children of God" (Rom. 8:16)
"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers. Amen" ( Gal. 6 :18)
For Jesus Christ to be with the regenerated human spirit allows the believer to experience the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ with their human spirit.
This is like the power steering in an automible. We can have Christ move within us once we receive Him into us. And we abide in Him and He in us.
This is so crucial that the very last words recorded by Paul in the New Testament was his reminder to Timothy that the Lord was with his spirit. Timothy may forget a lot of things. But he must never forget that the living Lord Jesus was in him and with his born again spirit.
Paul's last words:
" The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." (2 Tim. 4:22)
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men
There is room for an understanding that grace is a power OVER man. But once men become Christians they need to see that grace is a power of God WITHIN the believers.
Yes, the grace of God appeared to all men because Jesus appeared. When Jesus appeared the Grace appeared. He was the grace.
"For the law was given through Moses; grace and reality came through Jesus Christ" (John 1:17)
The LAW of Moses was given. Grace CAME through Jesus. When Jesus came GRACE came because this GRACE is really a living Person.
However God distributes his gifts in different ways and in different amounts to different people. We are required to make use of the many gifts which God gives us, AND WE CANNOT GET SALVATION IF WE DONT USE THESE GIFTS.
Rom 12:4-6 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us ..
We have to use those gifts God give us, and to do that requires DOING, WORKS. Paul did not sit on his laurels and meditated and enjoyed the Triune God and talk about abiding in Christ. He did the works that he was called upon to do.
No Paul did not sit on his laurels and meditate but he did ENJOY God being everything to him, empowering him, and enabling him to live and to labor.
I have the funny feeling that you count the word "enjoy" to mean "do nothing".
But as he was preaching, teaching, distributing material support, enduring, suffering he was also enjoying the bountiful supply of the grace of Christ.
God's grace was sufficient for him. And he labored more abundantly than all the apostles because he probably knew more deeply and extensively how to tap into the indwelling grace that was with him.
You are, in all of your posts giving the impression that abiding in Christ is about sitting around and chanting "I abide in Christ .. "I abide in Christ .. "I abide in Christ .. "I abide in Christ .. "I abide in Christ .. ".
ABIDE IN CHRIST MEANS ...
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
.. FOLLOWING HIS COMMANDMENTS. IF YOU DONT FOLLOW CHRIST'S COMMANDMENTS YOU CANNOT ABIDE IN CHRIST.
There is a time to work. And there is a time to NOT do.
For instance, what do you think Paul had to learn while he was sitting up in prison for two years ? He had to learn the power of prayer. He could not physically do much while he was chained up.
In spite of this he did not stop abiding in Christ and I think we are still living off of his abiding prayers, intercessions, petitions on behalf of the church.
If you don't count throne moving PRAYERS as also a labor in the Lord then I am afraid you don't know hardly anything about laboring in the Lord or by His grace.
18 Jan 12
2 edits
To "abide in Christ" is to be filled with Christ's love -- and if this is the case, the good works should be a very natural consequence.
James addressed this issue when he said "what good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?"
On the other hand, though, good works are essentially meaningless if that love is not present - which Paul addressed when he wrote "If I...do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clashing cymbal"
18 Jan 12
4 edits
Originally posted by MelanerpesAmen to that. Love is the expression of the divine life.
To "abide in Christ" is to be filled with Christ's love -- and if this is the case, the good works should be a very natural consequence.
James addressed this issue when he said "what good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?"
On the other hand, though, good works are essentially meaningless if that love is not p ...[text shortened]... addressed when he wrote "If I...do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clashing cymbal"
And SO VERY CRUCIAL is the truth of Christ living in the saints to be GRACE to them, that it is the very last word in the entire BIBLE.
" The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints. Amen." (Revelation 22:21)
Listen. The LAST word a person says in his writing is usually a most important and final point. The Bible's FINAL word -
"The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints. Amen" (Rev. 22:21)
Even after so much prophecy, after so much vision of how it all will end, how God will wrap it all up, and how God will conclude the entire history of man, we have this final word -
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with all the saints. Amen"
Saints are all the ones sanctified and set apart for God by salvation. The last word of the 66 books of the divine revelation are that the Lord Jesus would be with all the saints.
He is with the saints. He is living in the saints.
"Behold, I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age."
So yes, Rajk999. The saints should abide in Christ. They can proclaim in faith that they do. They can sing that they do. They can chant that they do. They can shout that they do, pray that they do, praise that they do, whisper that they do.
We Christians cannot afford ever to lose the precious truth - the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ is with us.
IF CHRIST IS NOT ALIVE ... IF CHRIST IS NOT WITH THE BELIEVERS ... The entire New Testament means nothing. And any amount of giving alms to these the least of his brothers is so much vain activity for nothing. Even Judas can give money to the poor for a show.
It only means anything as Christ is resurrected and alive and is with the regenerated human spirit as GRACE. Malanerpes, excuse me please, this was for all readers and not just for you.
18 Jan 12
Originally posted by MelanerpesThis is another example of how changing the wording of Christ and Paul [however insignificant you might think it is] changes its meaning.
To "abide in Christ" is to be filled with Christ's love -- and if this is the case, the good works should be a very natural consequence.
James addressed this issue when he said "what good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?"
On the other hand, though, good works are essentially meaningless if that love is not p ...[text shortened]... addressed when he wrote "If I...do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clashing cymbal"
You said :
To "abide in Christ" is to be filled with Christ's love -- and if this is the case, the good works should be a very natural consequence.
But its the other way around. Here is what Christ said.
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
In my words I take that to mean :
If you obey Christ then you will abide in the love of Christ
Plus Christ gave an example of his relationship with God.
Christ kept Gods commandments then he 'abide in his love'
Let us say that Christ did not obey God then clearly he would not have found favour with God. Christ had to 'DO' and 'PROVE' that he was able to obey God, and then God was pleased. This is demonstrated when the Holy Spirit descended on Christ and said " This is my son in whom I am well pleased "
Similarly we have to prove that we can follow Christs commandments and ONLY THEN would we abide in the love of Christ. We have to show that we can love others and love our neighbour as ourselves, and do what Christ commanded, and only then can we enjoy the love of Christ.
This is the teachings of Christ. I know churches twist it and turn it around but its pointless to do that. Christ knows what he said. Christ knows the heart of man and who is doing rather than just talking and singing and praying like the hypocritical Pharisees.
18 Jan 12
6 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999...Let us say that Christ did not obey God then clearly he would not have found favour with God. Christ had to 'DO' and 'PROVE' that he was able to obey God, and then God was pleased. This is demonstrated when the Holy Spirit descended on Christ and said " This is my son in whom I am well pleased "...
This is another example of how changing the wording of Christ and Paul [however insignificant you might think it is] changes its meaning.
You said :
[b]To "abide in Christ" is to be filled with Christ's love -- and if this is the case, the good works should be a very natural consequence.
But its the other way around. Here is what Christ said. ng rather than just talking and singing and praying like the hypocritical Pharisees.[/b]
Yet Christians have this wacky old trinity concept where Jesus, "God", and The holy spirit are different representations of the same thing
neglecting the logical implications of such a concept right now: for example that the intersection of the set of all things that have the mortality property and its compliment is empty - yet Jesus was mortal whilst \"God\" wasn\'t
- and so for all intents and purposes, Jesus had to prove himself to himself! 😕18 Jan 12
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillChrist is alive in those who do his will.
Amen to that. Love is the expression of the divine life.
And SO VERY CRUCIAL is the truth of Christ living in the saints to be GRACE to them, that it is the very last word in the entire BIBLE.
[b]" The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints. Amen." (Revelation 22:21)
Listen. The LAST word a person says in his writing is usually a GRACE. Malanerpes, excuse me please, this was for all readers and not just for you.[/b]
Christ is not alive in those who do not do his will.
18 Jan 12
Originally posted by AgergCorrect, yet another nail in the coffin of the Trinity and Triune God.
[b]...Let us say that Christ did not obey God then clearly he would not have found favour with God. Christ had to 'DO' and 'PROVE' that he was able to obey God, and then God was pleased. This is demonstrated when the Holy Spirit descended on Christ and said " This is my son in whom I am well pleased "...
Yet Christians have this wacky old trinity concep ...[text shortened]... ] - and so for all intents and purposes, Jesus had to prove himself to himself! 😕[/b]
God is the head of Christ.
Christ is the head of man.
Why do you care either way. You're an atheist.
18 Jan 12
2 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999and equally why do you care whether an atheist such as I cares either way about the veracity of holy books and doctrine? You're a theist!
Correct, yet another nail in the coffin of the Trinity and Triune God.
God is the head of Christ.
Christ is the head of man.
Why do you care either way. You're an atheist.
18 Jan 12
2 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999There's a chicken vs egg element to this --- in order to do truly good works, you first need to have God's love within you -- but in order to have God's love within you, you need to first do truly good works.
This is another example of how changing the wording of Christ and Paul [however insignificant you might think it is] changes its meaning.
You said :
[b]To "abide in Christ" is to be filled with Christ's love -- and if this is the case, the good works should be a very natural consequence.
But its the other way around. Here is what Christ said. ng rather than just talking and singing and praying like the hypocritical Pharisees.[/b]
I don't think you and Jaywill really disagree - I think the two of you are just focusing on opposite sides of this chicken and egg problem. Nevertheless, it does seem that religious discussions tend to focus a lot on doctrines, controversies, and metaphysics, and not so much on how to actually go about doing the good works.
The parable of the talents come to mind - the talents could be viewed as an "initial ability to love" that the master gives you - some people are given a lot of it, others not so much. The point of the parable, however, is that you take whatever "initial love" you're given and invest it - i.e. you use it to do good works - but the result is that you get your "initial love" back plus interest - so you invest that and get back even more - and so on.
18 Jan 12
Originally posted by MelanerpesI agree with your interpretation of the parable of the talents, although I did not view it that way before. I disagree however with your conclusion that there is any chicken and egg element here. Why? Because I cannot remember Christ saying anything resembling this ..
There's a chicken vs egg element to this --- in order to do truly good works, you first need to have God's love within you -- but in order to have God's love within you, you need to first do truly good works.
I don't think you and Jaywill really disagree - I think the two of you are just focusing on opposite sides of this chicken and egg problem. Never ...[text shortened]... ial love" back plus interest - so you invest that and get back even more - and so on.
.. in order to do truly good works, you first need to have God's love within you -- but in order to have God's love within you, you need to first do truly good works. .."
Plus, is there some differentiation in the entire Bible between ..
Good Works, and
Truly Good Works ?
If there is I would be interested in seeing the reference.
18 Jan 12
4 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999[/i]regarding "good works" - consider Paul's discussion of love in 1 Cor 12
I agree with your interpretation of the parable of the talents, although I did not view it that way before. I disagree however with your conclusion that there is any chicken and egg element here. Why? Because I cannot remember Christ saying anything resembling this ..
[i] .. in order to do truly good works, you first need to have God's love within you Works, and
Truly Good Works ?
If there is I would be interested in seeing the reference.
moving mountains -- giving away everything one owns - handing one's body over -- these may be good works (indeed extraordinarily good works) - but if it is not motivated by love, even these works are merely the clanging of gongs and cymbals.
another example is from the Sermon on the Mount - the hypocrite who blows a trumpet before himself while giving alms so as to win the praise of others. (although I'll admit it would be kind of amusing to see someone in the mall blowing a trumpet while dropping coins in the Salvation Army kettle - nevertheless, Jesus' point is clear).
the idea is that a lot of "good works" are done merely because people expect some reward in return (wages, honors, praise, reciprocation, etc) -- but a "truly" good work would be one in which the only motive is wanting to do something good for someone else -- such as Jesus' example of giving a dinner for people who are poor and cannot afford to return the favor.