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16 Jan 12
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999I appreciate everyone's comments on this thread. The thread may diverge beyond the scope of my original point of interest, and that is OK by me, I just might drop away until some later time, and just read what is posted without participating.
I get the feeling that you are speaking of just sitting or lying down and meditating on Christ. Your approach appears to be very abstract and does not do justice to the spirit of the teachings of Christ. You said ..
[i]"..Then they learn more what it means - "Abide in Me and I in you" Yes. they once entered into Christ. But they have to set the mind on t neighbour]. The consequences of NOT bearing fruit [doing good works] is destruction.
It is interesting to see similar and differing perspectives on the Bible. I don't know where else I could get that than here, because in most cases a denomination, religious teacher, or even religious website tends to adhere to a less varied understanding. So, thanks. I hope this kind of discussion can continue with the Bible and other religious (edit: also, philosophical) sources.
16 Jan 12
3 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999
I get the feeling that you are speaking of just sitting or lying down and meditating on Christ. Your approach appears to be very abstract and does not do justice to the spirit of the teachings of Christ. You said ..
[i]"..Then they learn more what it means - "Abide in Me and I in you" Yes. they once entered into Christ. But they have to set the mind on t neighbour]. The consequences of NOT bearing fruit [doing good works] is destruction.
[/i]
Much of your post is focused on 'SELF'. On the contrary Christ and Paul wrote along lines which focuses on being "SELFLESS". If you want some supporting passages about selflessness and charity and good works and how important they are to ones salvation I can produce dozens.
Quite the contrary. Abiding in Christ is practicing "Not I, but Christ" .
As we practice the works we are burdened for, we should see that we are "found in Him". We learn by experience to say with Paul - "It is no longer I [self] that lives but it is Christ who lives in me."
So I am not speaking of psychological introspection. I am speaking of "the mind set on the flesh is death. But the mind set on the spirit is life and peace."
Paul always wanted to be found in Christ not in even his good self -
"And be found in Him, not having my own righteousness which is out of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is out of God and based on faith." (Phil 3:9)
Now even the passage you quoted about 'ABIDE IN ME' is contradicting your interpretation. Here is the whole passage :
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
(John 15:1-10)
Where is the contradiction to what I said ?
Apart from abiding in Him we can do nothing. Where is the contradiction ?
Oh we can do a lot apart from abiding in Him. But such things will all amount to nothing for His kingdom.
There is no contradiction that I see. He is the True Vine. The life riches are in Him. If we are grafted into the True Vine the rich life of the Vine will flow into the branches enabling them to bear fruit.
Apart from abiding in Him we can do nothing. Or all that we do do apart from abiding in Him will amount to nothing.
That entire passage is about bearing fruit, about following the commandments of Christ [chief of which is love your neighbour]. The consequences of NOT bearing fruit [doing good works] is destruction.
I think chiefly, the fruit, in that chapter, must mean other believers are brought into Christ. For He does say "Go forth".
"You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and I set you that you should GO FORTH and BEAR FRUIT and that your fruit should remain ..." (v.16)
While "fruit" does have varied connotations in the New Testament, I think that the going forth mentioned in verse 16 implies going forth with the Gospel.
And it is true that the branches not abiding in the true vine are said to be gathered and burned. I don't think this refers to eternal perdition. But it does refer to some kind of destruction and lose of well being, most likely during the kingdom age.
That is a temporary discipline of some kind. For Christ has already informed us that no one can snatch the saved one out of His hand.
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
And I give them eternal life, and they shall by no means perish forever, and no one shall snatch them out of My hand.
My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them out of My Father's hand.
I and the Father are one." (John 10:27-30)
16 Jan 12
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillHere is how Christ wants us to be selfless and ABIDE IN HIM, and how we need to show our love for Him:
Abiding in Christ is practicing "Not I, but Christ"
Matt 25:35-36 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Plain, simple and easy to understand .. When we see Christ hungry or naked or in prison or if he needs help in any way, we need to stop talking, stop meditating, stop enjoying the Triune God, stop thinking about SELF and get out and DO ..
Rom 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Those are the clear words of Christ and Paul.
17 Jan 12
Originally posted by Rajk999Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Here is how Christ wants us to be selfless and ABIDE IN HIM, and how we need to show our love for Him:
Matt 25:35-36 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Plain, simple an ...[text shortened]... e doers of the law shall be justified. [/i]
Those are the clear words of Christ and Paul.[/b]
(Romans 13:10 NKJV)
17 Jan 12
Originally posted by RJHinds
Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
(Romans 13:10 NKJV)
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. (1 John 2:3-5)
17 Jan 12
Originally posted by jaywillHere is what John said in one simple sentence ...
Where is the contradiction to what I said ?
Apart from abiding in Him we can do nothing. Where is the contradiction ?
Oh we can do a lot apart from abiding in Him. But such things will all amount to nothing for His kingdom.
1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
To abide in Christ is to walk in his footsteps.
To walk in Christ's footsteps is to follow his commandments and his example.
To follow his commandments is to do the good works that Christ said to do.
But your analysis of what 'ABIDE IN CHRIST' meant was totally different and even ended up criticizing the value of good works.
The words of Christ and the Apostles are mostly simple and uncomplicated.
Why complicate it?
17 Jan 12
2 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999
Here is how Christ wants us to be selfless and ABIDE IN HIM, and how we need to show our love for Him:
Matt 25:35-36 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Plain, simple an ...[text shortened]... e doers of the law shall be justified. [/i]
Those are the clear words of Christ and Paul.[/b]
Here is how Christ wants us to be selfless and ABIDE IN HIM, and how we need to show our love for Him:
Matt 25:35-36 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
This is going too far from the OP. And it is a misunderstanding of Matt. 25:35-36.
I don't think it is an error to apply some of the principles of Matthew 25:35-36 , for certainly there are other clearer admonishments to the Christians to care for the needy, especially those communing in the church life (Gal. 6:10) .
But if we move from an application to a proper interpretation of Matthew 25:35-36, this word is to those who did not even KNOW Christ. So they couldn't be disciples of Christ.
The sheep in Matthew 25:32-46 are not Christian sheep.
The sheep are people who very much seem to not know who Christ was - "Then the righteous [sheep] will answer Him, saying, Lord, when have we seen You hungry and have fed You, or thirsty amd jave govenm You a drink? And when have we seen You a stranger and have taken You in, or naked and have clothed You ? And when have we seen You sick or in prison and have come to You?" (vs. 37-39)
Throughout the church age Christians know that other Christians are the Lord's brethren. These "sheep" do not know that fact. So these "sheep" are not the Christian sheep of the Christian church.
These sheep are people during the great tribulation who will care for the persecuted, starved, hounded, refugeed, suffering, naked, ill-cared for Christians and Jews who are under the wearing out and destroying of the Antichrist.
They are permitted to be transfered from this age into the age of the millennial kingdom because, though they did not know the Gospel, they did respond to a normal human conscience and the preaching of God the Creator (Rev. 14:6-7) by the angel/s in the air during the darkest days of the great tribulation to come.
The judgment in Matthew 25:32-46 is not the last judgment of the great white throne in Revelation 20 after the millennium. Rather this judgment of Matthew 25:32-46 is the judgment of the living nations who come through to the end of the great tribulation and are present when Christ sets down again upon the earth. This is before the millennial kingdom at its very beginning. This is not after the millennial kingdom at its end.
Plain, simple and easy to understand .. When we see Christ hungry or naked or in prison or if he needs help in any way, we need to stop talking, stop meditating, stop enjoying the Triune God, stop thinking about SELF and get out and DO ..
That is a humanist interpretation that everybody is a BROTHER of Jesus Christ and we should take care of them.
For years humanists and social gospel advicates have used Matthew 25:313-46 to emphasize that only doing merciful things is required regardless of what one believes in about the Son of God.
This doesn't work on me. That is not to oppose mercy, alms, works of assistance to the needy. But to use this passage to show that such activity is what the Christian disciple must do to be a Christians disciple, is unwarranted.
There are not TWO groups in the teaching. There are THREE groups.
1. ) The sheep.
2.) The goats.
3.) The "the least of these My brothers".
That is THREE catagories of people in the teaching. And the "sheep" are not the same as "the least of these Ny brothers". And the goats are not the same as "the least of these My brothers".
So the teaching is not that ALL men are the brothers of Jesus.
And the teaching is not that any one performing humanitarian deeds is a disciple of Jesus either.
Now I have to go do something now. Maybe we can talk about it more latter.
HOWEVER, there is an interesting by product of my interpretation. IF I am correct then the passages probably shows that some people not born again will be saved. At least, if my interpretation is correct (not that I invented such an interpretation) then I must accept that the "righteous" here are some people transfered into the millennial kingdom and perhaps even enter into an everlasting life, thought they were not born again.
Think carefully before you rebut.
17 Jan 12
Originally posted by Rajk999It is all fulfilled in the law of love. HalleluYah !!!And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. (1 John 2:3-5)
17 Jan 12
Originally posted by jaywillAll that convoluted roundabout interpretation, and eventual twisting of some very simple words of Christ ?
Here is how Christ wants us to be selfless and ABIDE IN HIM, and how we need to show our love for Him:
Matt 25:35-36 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
...[text shortened]... ife, thought they were not born again.
Think carefully before you rebut.
One minute you all hung up about abiding in Christ and enjoying the triune God and loving Christ, and experiencing Christ etc etc, and the next minute you denying what Christ said about good works. Talk alone is worthless ...
Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
18 Jan 12
2 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999
All that convoluted roundabout interpretation, and eventual twisting of some very simple words of Christ ?
One minute you all hung up about abiding in Christ and enjoying the triune God and loving Christ, and experiencing Christ etc etc, and the next minute you denying what Christ said about good works. Talk alone is worthless ...
Tit 1:16 They ...[text shortened]... works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
All that convoluted roundabout interpretation, and eventual twisting of some very simple words of Christ ?
One minute you all hung up about abiding in Christ and enjoying the triune God and loving Christ, and experiencing Christ etc etc, and the next minute you denying what Christ said about good works. Talk alone is worthless ...
Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
It is your own darkened ignorance which assumes "enjoying the Triune God" means not accomplishing anything through Him, in Him, by Him, and unto Him.
That is your darkened ignorance which assumes abiding in Christ means a self indulgent passivity.
18 Jan 12
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillSo what exactly do you DO ?
[quote] All that convoluted roundabout interpretation, and eventual twisting of some very simple words of Christ ?
One minute you all hung up about abiding in Christ and enjoying the triune God and loving Christ, and experiencing Christ etc etc, and the next minute you denying what Christ said about good works. Talk alone is worthless ...
Tit 1:16 Th b] darkened ignorance which assumes [b]abiding in Christ means a self indulgent passivity.[/b]
When I did suggest that ABIDE IN HIM meant doing and following his commandments [and this is stated in the Bible] you said ..
.. Apart from abiding in Him we can do nothing. Or all that we do do apart from abiding in Him will amount to nothing...
You did not agreee that to abide in Christ is to follow his commandments the chief of which is love your neighbour. Furthermore you did not explain what is meant by abiding in Christ except to use more abstract descriptions of eating, chewing and taking in the spirit etc etc. What exactly does all that mean in realistic terms ?
Anyway you have your own private interpretation of the teachings of Christ and Paul, which to my mind seems far-fetched and abstract.
18 Jan 12
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999
So what exactly do you DO ?
When I did suggest that ABIDE IN HIM meant doing and following his commandments [and this is stated in the Bible] you said ..
.. Apart from abiding in Him we can do nothing. Or all that we do do apart from abiding in Him will amount to nothing...
You did not agreee that to abide in Christ is to follow his comman ...[text shortened]... rpretation of the teachings of Christ and Paul, which to my mind seems far-fetched and abstract.
Anyway you have your own private interpretation of the teachings of Christ and Paul, which to my mind seems far-fetched and abstract.
The reason Paul abode in Christ was to live by the grace of God. And he lived and labored by this grace of Christ. Paul said that he did and accomplished a lot by this grace. He worked more abundantly than all the other apostles because he lived and labored by this grace -
"But by the grace of God I am what I am; and His grace unto me did not turn out to be in vain, but, on the contrary, I labored more abundantly than all of them, yet not I but the grace of God which is with me." (1 Cor. 15:10)
18 Jan 12
5 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999
So what exactly do you DO ?
When I did suggest that ABIDE IN HIM meant doing and following his commandments [and this is stated in the Bible] you said ..
.. Apart from abiding in Him we can do nothing. Or all that we do do apart from abiding in Him will amount to nothing...
You did not agreee that to abide in Christ is to follow his comman ...[text shortened]... rpretation of the teachings of Christ and Paul, which to my mind seems far-fetched and abstract.
So what exactly do you DO ?
That is like the question "Define God in 25 words or less. Give two examples."
Paul had no confidence in his natural man. He and his team accomplished a lot because they had confidence in the empowering of the indwelling Spirit of God.
"For we are the circumcision, the ones who serve by the Spirit of God and boast in Christ Jesus and have no confidence in the flesh." (Phil. 3:3)
Strange and far off teaching ? No indeed. The Apostle Paul's boast was not in his flesh (his fallen natural man or what it could accomplish). He had no confidence in that. He served by the Spirit of God.
It was a learning process. And it is normal learning process no Christian can avoid indefinitely.
Paul also said that "the excellency of the power" by which he served God was not of him but of the treasure of Christ's life within him.
"But we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the exellency of the power may be of God and not out of us." (2 Cor. 4:7)
By gradual learning, the apostle learned to labor by abiding in this excellent One indwelling him Who was empowering him.
Finally, Paul said the same empowering operated in Peter the apostle -
"For He who operated in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcision operated also in me for the Gentiles" (Gal. 2:2)
This operating power within Paul, the other senior apostles could witness, that he labored by the indwelling grace of Christ -
"And perceiving the grace given to me, James and Cephas and John, who were reported to be pillars, gave to me and Barnabus the right hand of fellowship that we should go to the Gentiles , and they, to the circumcision." (v.9)
Paul's labor's accomplished very much. But he attributes it all to the grace of God which was with him;
" ... and His grace unto me did not turn out to be in vain, but, on the contrary, I LABORED MORE ABUNDANTLY than all of them, yet not I but the grace of God which is with me." (1 Cor. 15:10)
When you put these two passages together, you can see that "not I but Christ who lives within me" is simply equal to "not I but the grace of God which is with me"
Gal. 2:20 - " I am crucified with Chist; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who loves in me ..."
1 Cor. 15:10 - " I labored more abundantly than all of them, yet not I but the grace of God which is with me."
The grace of God that empowered Paul to labor so much was the Christ that lived in him. As he learned to abide in Christ he learned that his old man had been crucified with Christ. And he lived an abiding life in Christ, joined and mingled with Christ. This union with the living available Christ was the operating grace of God empowering him both to live and to labor.
He was really the best example of "Abide Me and I in you" .
18 Jan 12
3 edits
Originally posted by jaywillTypo CorrectionSo what exactly do you DO ?
That is like the question "Define God in 25 words or less. Give two examples."
Paul had no confidence in his natural man. He and his team accomplished a lot because they had confidence in the empowering of the indwelling Spirit of God.
[b]"For we are the circumcision, the ones who serve by the Sp He was really the best example of [b]"Abide Me and I in you" .[/b]
Gal. 2:20 - " I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who [ lives ] in me ..."[/b]
1 Cor. 15:10 - " I labored more abundantly than all of them, yet not I but the grace of God which is with me."
The point was that the indwelling living of Christ was also the indwelling working of the grace Christ.
Actually Paul ministered what he was, what he had become by abiding in Christ.
18 Jan 12
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillI think you are still missing the point I am making. ABIDING IN CHRIST IS ABOUT WORKS. ITS NOT ABOUT CHANTING "I ABIDE IN CHRIST".Anyway you have your own private interpretation of the teachings of Christ and Paul, which to my mind seems far-fetched and abstract.
The reason Paul abode in Christ was to live by the grace of God. And he lived and labored by this [b]grace of Christ. Paul said that he did and accomplished a lot by this grace. He worked more abund dantly than all of them, yet not I but the grace of God which is with me." (1 Cor. 15:10) [/b]
First, the Grace of God applies to all men. All people live and exist through the grace of God. You, me, Paul, atheists .. everybody. We all live through the grace of God. Even the gift of salvation through grace is for ALL men, no exceptions.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men
However God distributes his gifts in different ways and in different amounts to different people. We are required to make use of the many gifts which God gives us, AND WE CANNOT GET SALVATION IF WE DONT USE THESE GIFTS.
Rom 12:4-6 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us ..
We have to use those gifts God give us, and to do that requires DOING, WORKS. Paul did not sit on his laurels and meditated and enjoyed the Triune God and talk about abiding in Christ. He did the works that he was called upon to do.
You are, in all of your posts giving the impression that abiding in Christ is about sitting around and chanting "I abide in Christ .. "I abide in Christ .. "I abide in Christ .. "I abide in Christ .. "I abide in Christ .. ".
ABIDE IN CHRIST MEANS ...
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
.. FOLLOWING HIS COMMANDMENTS. IF YOU DONT FOLLOW CHRIST'S COMMANDMENTS YOU CANNOT ABIDE IN CHRIST.