1. Standard memberMonty348
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    22 Apr '09 04:271 edit
    In the Bible, God walked and talked with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.

    As a searching pilgrim trying to believe that God is real and present in the world today, I wonder often why he does not reveal himself more fully to those who search for him?

    I'm very interested in what other people think about this.
  2. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    22 Apr '09 04:56
    Originally posted by Monty348
    In the Bible, God walked and talked with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.

    As a searching pilgrim trying to believe that God is real and present in the world today, I wonder often why he does not reveal himself more fully to those who search for him?

    I'm very interested in what other people think about this.
    Perhaps because the stories of the Garden of Eden did not literally happen, but rather were folk tales passed down through the generations.

    Taking the stories to be literally true leads to absurdity - to the idea that the whole human race was damned by a single act of child-like curiosity.
  3. Standard memberKellyJay
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    22 Apr '09 05:31
    Originally posted by Monty348
    In the Bible, God walked and talked with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.

    As a searching pilgrim trying to believe that God is real and present in the world today, I wonder often why he does not reveal himself more fully to those who search for him?

    I'm very interested in what other people think about this.
    I believe it is a reality check, if God revealed Himself more comletely
    would our actions than be because of our fear or the reality of what we
    really are?
    Kelly
  4. Standard memberHand of Hecate
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    22 Apr '09 16:14
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    I believe it is a reality check, if God revealed Himself more comletely
    would our actions than be because of our fear or the reality of what we
    really are?
    Kelly
    Aren't our actions already driven by fear? Fear of spiritual/Godly smiting or some more reality based legal consequence?

    Quite simply, while I may want to pull off your thumbs with a pair of pliers, fear of the consequences would prevent me from doing so. Plus, I suspect you're sort of a chunky monkey and dismembering your corpse would be a hell of a chore.
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    22 Apr '09 17:45
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    Perhaps because the stories of the Garden of Eden did not literally happen, but rather were folk tales passed down through the generations.

    Taking the stories to be literally true leads to absurdity - to the idea that the whole human race was damned by a single act of child-like curiosity.
    child like curiosity or a deliberate and premeditated act of rebellion in an attempt to usurp divine sovereignty and establish an alternative system of moral independence based on the lie that God was withholding beneficial knowledge, its how you look at it, tis it not? 🙂
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    22 Apr '09 18:021 edit
    Originally posted by Monty348
    In the Bible, God walked and talked with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.

    As a searching pilgrim trying to believe that God is real and present in the world today, I wonder often why he does not reveal himself more fully to those who search for him?

    I'm very interested in what other people think about this.
    In short, he desires you to desire him. Scripture is full of verses that encourage you to seek God. As Christ once said, seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened. I can attest to this fact. Pretty much any revelation I have received was soley from desiring to know and seek God.

    I thihk it all has to do with human will. God put it there for a reason and he desires you to want him. Force has no interest, otherwise, it would be like God either loving himself or hating himself back. It would be akin to playing tic tac toe with yourself.

    As for myself, I always wondered wjhy the scriptures say that God requires faith and without it, it is impossible to please God. Throughout scripture faith is the key to righteousness. So why not show people without a shadow of a doubt that he exists? I say it is because it has not proven to be that beneficial. For example, Adam and Eve knew without a doubt he existed, and they rebelled. The children of Israel witness God spliting the Red Sea and raining bread from heaven and they rebelled. You see, faith has more to do with the human will in that we desire to align our will with his own. This is what faith really is all about. Then once we have done so, we have aligned our lives with the will that has our best interests in mind thus we attain righteousness through our participation in a righteous plan.
  7. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    22 Apr '09 20:25
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    child like curiosity or a deliberate and premeditated act of rebellion in an attempt to usurp divine sovereignty and establish an alternative system of moral independence based on the lie that God was withholding beneficial knowledge, its how you look at it, tis it not? 🙂
    Adam and Eve may have been technically adults, but they had neither life experience nor human parents. Their situation was like than that of a [largely unsupervised] young child pushing the boundaries. The only way for them to truly learn what they can and cannot do is to try doing it and see what gets them in trouble.
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    22 Apr '09 21:13
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    Adam and Eve may have been technically adults, but they had neither life experience nor human parents. Their situation was like than that of a [largely unsupervised] young child pushing the boundaries. The only way for them to truly learn what they can and cannot do is to try doing it and see what gets them in trouble.
    Actually it is a very very interesting observation, a couple of points worth remembering, is that Adam had communed with God for ages before the creation of Eve, i am sure its calculable from Biblical chronology, i cannot be exact though, thus god would have provided guidance, one can safely assume, secondly the appeal by Satan was not so much an appeal to the senses, but an appeal to the intellect, for the phrase, 'the fruit was desirable to look upon', literally means, 'desirable for imparting knowledge', thus it was an appeal to Eve, who at the time was sinless and therefore perfect, for complete moral independence, the deciding of what was 'good and bad'.

    what can we say on this regard? for certainly humans are endowed with the capacity to reason, the real interesting part is how this self realization dawned upon them. what were they like before, were they in a childlike state of innocence as you suggest Gambit? i know its an old philosophical argument, but is it really necessary to know something through the senses, to experience it? or can one 'know' by another means, perhaps as Beetle would say through an evaluation of the mind?
  9. Standard memberSwissGambit
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    23 Apr '09 05:46
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    Actually it is a very very interesting observation, a couple of points worth remembering, is that Adam had communed with God for ages before the creation of Eve, i am sure its calculable from Biblical chronology, i cannot be exact though, thus god would have provided guidance, one can safely assume, secondly the appeal by Satan was not so much an app ...[text shortened]... 'know' by another means, perhaps as Beetle would say through an evaluation of the mind?
    They were not promised that they could decide what is good and evil, but only that they could know what is good and evil. This does not give any moral independence, but only culpability for wrongdoing.

    And yes, the way the story goes, it seems like they were in a childlike state of innocence before they gained knowledge of good and evil.
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    23 Apr '09 09:12
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    I believe it is a reality check, if God revealed Himself more comletely
    would our actions than be because of our fear or the reality of what we
    really are?
    Kelly
    1. Are you saying that if we were sure that God existed and knew more about him we would be afraid?
    2. Are you also saying that you do not currently know enough about him to be afraid? If so how can you know 1?
    3. Is it therefore in your opinion better for us to act in ignorance? If so then why to Christians keep trying to tell me about God?
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    23 Apr '09 09:22
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    1. Are you saying that if we were sure that God existed and knew more about him we would be afraid?
    2. Are you also saying that you do not currently know enough about him to be afraid? If so how can you know 1?
    3. Is it therefore in your opinion better for us to act in ignorance? If so then why to Christians keep trying to tell me about God?
    Good questions. Indeed, good questions.

    "It's better to fear than to know!"
    Like don't wanting to know about the fearful thunder. Knowing can protect you, but you would rather be ignorant and scared of thunder.
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    23 Apr '09 11:07
    Originally posted by KellyJay
    I believe it is a reality check, if God revealed Himself more comletely
    would our actions than be because of our fear or the reality of what we
    really are?
    Kelly
    god will be known by all, of that all christians/jews agree.
    he even spoke to adam eve and cain after they banished to earth. also to mosses on the mount. if you chose not to belive then thats your human choise.
  13. Donationkirksey957
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    23 Apr '09 11:16
    Originally posted by SwissGambit
    Adam and Eve may have been technically adults, but they had neither life experience nor human parents. Their situation was like than that of a [largely unsupervised] young child pushing the boundaries. The only way for them to truly learn what they can and cannot do is to try doing it and see what gets them in trouble.
    But isn't it a story of God aslo learning what gets him in trouble too? He has no expereince with this any more than Adam and Eve.
  14. Standard memberKellyJay
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    23 Apr '09 15:51
    Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
    Aren't our actions already driven by fear? Fear of spiritual/Godly smiting or some more reality based legal consequence?

    Quite simply, while I may want to pull off your thumbs with a pair of pliers, fear of the consequences would prevent me from doing so. Plus, I suspect you're sort of a chunky monkey and dismembering your corpse would be a hell of a chore.
    It is the differrence between driving down the road when you see the
    police are monitoring the speed everyone is doing, and just knowing
    they could be there.
    Kelly
  15. Standard memberKellyJay
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    23 Apr '09 15:58
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    1. Are you saying that if we were sure that God existed and knew more about him we would be afraid?
    2. Are you also saying that you do not currently know enough about him to be afraid? If so how can you know 1?
    3. Is it therefore in your opinion better for us to act in ignorance? If so then why to Christians keep trying to tell me about God?
    The fear is justified, since there isn't anyone that can pull us from His
    hand or protect us from His judgment; however, the grace and mercy
    that we are shown through the love He has for us is by far greater.

    I'm also saying that we tend to let things go we should not, or do
    things we should not because that is in our heart to do. I will speak for
    myself but I do tend to from time to time do things I know are wrong
    while I'm doing them, because I want to, even if I am struggling to
    not them them!

    I'm not saying that it is better to act in ignorance, God through Jesus
    Christ has setup a waya of salvation, a life raft in the storm of life you
    either get in or you don't, both choices will lead you somewhere.

    Knowing God is a means to reject the sin of this life too, without Him
    why would you?
    Kelly
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